I would like to add something with which I have personal experience. They who defend this can all say that a teeny stick from a tree is more for “noise” than actual whipping and had she used her whip it would have hurt more. False. If you were ever a child (in the south as far as I know) way back, a “switch” from a tree is precisely what you were spanked with. It stings horribly. It’s extremely painful, and wonder of wonders, doesn’t leave a mark on a horse. This is not a “stick” encouraging a recalcitrant horse to go forward. It’s a whipping, pure and simple.
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I can say, with confidence, I have never overhand wailed on a horse 10 times in a row in lieu of actually allowing the horse to process a request. As far as “generic” whack for lack of forward go -
Once, sure!
Twice, you bet.
Three times in a row for the one that was trying to pile drive me and was still coming towards me after the first one? Heck yeah.
I was so uncoordinated by the third whack on the horse mentioned above, I doubt I’ve ever swung for a fourth because I can’t even think of how that might feel. Even three whacks, I was second guessing myself, thinking “how could I have avoided having to do that?”
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From my childhood (shudders) a switch is far more flexible than this stick seemed to be. But absolutely agree with you that this was not “for noise” or MT would have left the leaves on it and just whooshed it around behind the horse.
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Many posters have shared their stories of things exactly as you speak? So what you are saying is if we all do it then its ok?
Its about GROWTH. Its about learning, its about CHANGE.
As for the bolded part…you don’t have to be Mark Todd to know there is a better way, a kinder way, an actually more effective way. If you don’t care to learn about the positive changes happening in horsemanship and horse training then leave it to the next generation, boomers, fall back.
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Who?
Whoever quoted the bible upthread, I guess I’ll cast the first stone. I don’t feel bad about admitting I’ve never given my horse a pre-meditated beating in the raw flesh. Adults used to beg me to stick my horse and chase me with a longe whip as a kid and all I did was endure their yelling and cry about it later. I’m sure there are many COTHers with similar experiences.
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I audited a clinic with an BNT in eventing (probably the biggest BNT in the late 70s through the 80s). I’ll just call him Mr. D. He really laid into a horse with a lunge whip.
Several years later, I was able to clinic with a up-and-coming BNT. Someone was having trouble with their horse at a particular obstacle and it turns out the horse had issues ever since a lunge-whip incident at a clinic with Mr. D, similar to what I witnessed. This up-and-coming trainer traveled quite extensively throughout the US and Canada giving clinics and said he was making a living just fixing all the horses Mr. D broke at clinics.
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As above, for those that think the horse takes the beating, drops into the water and forgets it.
I was not there for the beating, however when I bought my Vinnie Girl I was told she was beaten in a lesson by Anne Honours, 2 owners prior. Vin was not getting the concept of flying changes and so was beaten for it. You had to be careful asking for a flying change as she would get scared and leap quite a few times and get anxious.
So one day I am having a lesson with my instructor who was the person I bought Vinnie from, who trained Vin to medium, who is also my employer, a Grand Prix dressage rider and a Level III Instructor. We are working in walk and she was trying to teach me pirouettes.
She said Vin was not doing what she was supposed to be doing, so she would hop on her and train her. By this time Barbara was in her 60’s.
Barabara was a lot shorter than me. I held the offside rein near the bit and the offside stirrup like you do for safety when someone mounts. I continued holding her as we chatted and Barabara pulled the stirrups up and crossed them in front of her as she was only going to walk.
When she picked up the reins. I let go of the rein. I instinctively grabbed the rein again as Vinnie looked like she was going to launch. Then my brain kicked in. What are you doing? This is an experienced rider. You are a lowly level I rider. What do you think you are doing holding the rein?and I let go again.
Vinnie didn’t launch. Barabara took her and worked her in walk until she settled enough for her to dismount. My heart was in my mouth. She came back to me and slid down on to the ground and leant gently against the saddle with her cheek and said, Thank God, I thought she was going to buck me off.
Golden Vienna was rising 13, I don’t know how many years prior she was beaten in a lesson, however it could have been 5 or more years earlier.
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Its different when you’re a junior and don’t know better, compared to a professional who is 65 years old, can control their emotions and are very well aware of their actions.
Being juvenile and uneducated and making mistakes is very different to a 65 year old professional who has been around awhile.
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Horse and Hound report:
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pffft
“My take was that it wasn’t pleasurable to watch but Mark had been specifically asked to fix this and problem-solve, and my take is that’s exactly what he did, and he did it without any anger or aggression at all,” he said, adding that the horse showed no signs of fear of anxiety, and the rider appeared “over the moon, delighted” afterwards. The cheer that went up when the horse jumped in can be heard on the video.
The riders all then moved on to another jump complex, the spectator said.
“The horse looked happy; confident and relaxed and showed absolutely no signs that his welfare had been compromised in any way, shape or form,” he added
Person interviewed needs a lesson in reading horse expression.
I love how the argument is that the horse was happy and fine the whole time…that’s even more reason why violence should not have been involved. MT had been specifically asked to fix this issue?
That again is even bigger yikes if this is Marks method of fixing things. SMH
The man, who preferred to remain anonymous, is an equestrian professional who was there to support a rider in the lesson before the one in question, and stayed to watch the next session.
of course
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There’s a broad middle ground wherein I’m not going to call it abusive or cruel - because I do feel it falls short of both - I appreciate that this position offends many, and I understand why it does. With that said, someone(s) are going to twist my position into one where I’m supporting, condoning, and in fact, beating my own horses (??). So while I’m not old enough to be a boomer …apparently some of us are supposed to sit down and shut up and get out of the way of progress. That’s not helpful or additive behavior- as someone reminded me earlier in the thread. The indulgence of just railing at ‘us’ as horrid old idiot monsters - how does that advance the conversation? If you’ve never encountered any rough stuff around the barn, that’s fantastic…at the same time I’m like wow, am I just around or seeing a lot of stuff or what? Let’s talk about it, not pit each other as enemies. I’m not the enemy, and I haven’t beaten Chip, or Archie, or Toppy or even the donkey since their attitudes improved. #JOKING
We are your fellow horse people and riders and trainers and such- spitting vinegar does not invite us to the table to talk it through.
If you (general you), just want to ‘win’ the day or the argument, just say so. If we’re going to talk, then talk.
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We don’t need to cancel anyone (FWIW I hate that term, and feel like those who throw it out there are part of the problem) but what we do need to do is have discussions, like this one, that evaluates what happened, what went wrong, and how to go forward in the future so that it doesn’t.
If these things aren’t filmed, if they aren’t discussed, if repercussions don’t take place-nothing gets better. I feel like the past couple years in the world has taught us this.
I have seen the world change in our industry. You can teach a new dog old tricks when it’s actually humans we are talking about. But no one changes their mind or their approach without discussions on how to do better and be better.
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MT is a big name who has decades of experience under his belt and is a well known clinician. I doubt this is the first time people have filmed at his clinics. It’s standard practice for people to video themselves so they can review the footage and the information they learned since it’s hard to train with BNTs regularly.
There wasn’t really a point of him going after the horse and I find it hard to believe this was an accident or mistake. He spends a significant portion of the clip preparing the branch for use and is very calm about it, not frantic or rushing to correct anything.
Not that there was anything to correct, the horse was going in and out of the water confidently and would’ve been fine. The horse had their ears up and was fine on the approach until MT starts running out from behind the tree, then the ears flick back and the horse immediately starts to falter. Also, even if the horse had started getting nervous without MT’s influence, another rider/horse could’ve given them the lead in. I don’t think it’s all that productive to do what he did, especially if the horse was less experienced with going in/out of water as it would just create a negative experience that they associate with the water. Good first impressions will make a horse & rider’s life a lot easier.
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I feel certain that if the person wielding the stick-as-a-whip in this video was a no-name local trainer instead of a former Olympian, there would not be a single word of defense for the actions shown here. Nobody would be complaining about people over analyzing the footage, there definitely would not be other local trainers jumping on Facebook posting their support, and horse people would be telling their friends and strangers alike to never take a lesson or clinic with that trainer.
Am I wrong?
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I think you are likely wrong. Were it Clinton Anderson or Marilyn Little or the likes of Anky or Ollie, disciplines be damned, the collective would say they had gone too far, been too rough. Because their body of work is too ragged.
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He’s done.
No going back. Forever blemished. Discredited. Stained.
Good.
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Everyone has made mistakes, but it is a matter of degree.
I have never lashed a horse 9 times. In fact, I’ve never lashed a horse with a long switch, or a longe whip. No matter what was happening - jumping, trail, trailer loading, etc.
I have never whipped or otherwise punished a horse that was going forward, ears up, looking positively toward an obstacle.
It isn’t just the one incident. So many things about MT’s behavior, starting with having the switch ready when the horse hadn’t even started the main exercise and was showing no signs of stopping. MT leaping forward after a horse that had ears up and was moving forward.
I believe your point is that this is a form of training that isn’t that uncommon. I agree with that. But it is now outdated and can be replaced with methods that are both kinder and more effective.
As horse people, we need to learn and move forward. We need to not defend these egregious “mistakes”. Yes they need to be called out this vigorously to push for better methods.
Why are you condemning an entire class of riders by age? Would we not rather know people as individuals, rather than generalizing the behavior of one or a few to the entire group?
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Right.
MT taught those people to beat a horse over an obstacle. Now this spectator is reinforcing the lesson. Anonymously.
This. This is the point of the broader discussion.
Horse training has a long history of MT’s approach in the video. It’s time to do better. It’s more effective, more lasting, and safer for the rider as well as the horse.
Far from it. As others have already said, this probably won’t affect his bookings that much. And any effect will be short-lived.
The dismay over his behavior is far from universal. We see the people who don’t have any problem with his actions, who approve and endorse this approach to training.
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From the end of the article cited above … rider’s remarks, at the bottom of the article …
The rider told H&H she did not give Mark permission to hit her horse. She confirmed he took her through easier options into the water first but the jump in question was the first time he had faced the “bigger bank”.
The rider said she was happy when the horse jumped in, but this was because she had not realised “the situation around why he had jumped in”, and did not know he had been hit until she watched the video later.
I’ve had it happen that I can’t see what an instructor is doing behind me, behind the horse, while I’m looking and riding forward and focusing on that. The horse’s uncharacteristic reaction caused me to look back to see if something was happening back there.
Sure enough, a clinician was coming up behind with a swinging longe whip, about to strike the horse. As with the video, the horse had not stopped until the whip came out, then he froze. I said no this is not the right way to handle this. Said I would call it a day and address it on my own at a later time. Clinician was furious and shouted that I was a quitter. I had nothing more to say to her. (Semi-big-name clinician.) At a later time the horse jumped the obstacle with no issues.
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I’m not saying people won’t use him. I’m saying that with the general public as well as MANY horsemen he’s now persona non grata. I for one won’t buy any of his stuff, wish him well, listen to a word he says. His commercial endorsements are toast. Anyone who even tries to use him will face a flurry of mail and threats of boycott.
It’s different now. You’ll see.
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