Oops! Mark Todd cruelty

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

It doesn’t really matter, since I am truly no one, but FWIW (and this will probably make both “sides” of the issue angry), I think:

1. What Todd did was both wrong and ineffective training and I’m incredibly saddened and disappointed by it.
2. Instead of the mass sharing, vilification, OR defending of Todd’s actions, it would have been nice if he could have explained the rationale for his actions. In fact, it would have been even better if the rider could have felt comfortable enough to have at least discussed with him personally after the clinic why she felt the issue was problematic. But unfortunately there hasn’t been much “space” in the horse world to sincerely talk about “doing better.” (I admit I’m a bit skeptical of horse people who only now, post-video are going on about that.)
3. I hate victim-shaming. But the giggly screenshot exchange of “share the video/I will be cancelled” doesn’t put her in a good light, along with the H&H article. At this point, given all the firestorm, it’s probably impossible to find an objective source. On the other hand, even if she herself isn’t a great person, that still doesn’t make the branch incident right.
4. I hate how the most “cinematic” abuse seems to get the most attention in the trial-by-social media-fire. A great example was how one year the lady who kicked at her horse after falling off in the hunter ring was condemned because of a viral video, while a bunch of known drugging violators were still happily competing in the ring, thanks to some creative lawyering. Even interesting (to put it gently) bits and competing on exhausted and overfaced horses in eventing don’t get this kind of attention because they lack the drama of the tree and the fact they are wrong is harder to “read” on camera for someone outside of the sport.

There’s got to be a better way? Maybe there isn’t?

[FitzE]

I don’t think any of that will/should make either side angry. All looks pretty reasonable to me.

[enjoytheride]

I disagree, I don’t think anything he could have said about the incident would have been good enough. Look how many people on this thread know the exact answer to getting the horse in the water, and how different those answers are. And many of those people don’t have any experience at the level where horses have to drop into water, or even any experience eventing but feel perfectly qualified that they have the one and only answer.

Despite his sincere apology and regret, when you have people saying his career is ruined, comparing it to rape, urging boycotts and letter writing campaigns off a 2 minute video I don’t think anything from Mark would be good enough.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I actually meant that I was personally curious and open-minded as to what he had to say. I can understand from a social media perspective how replying to something like the video is viewed as using kerosene to put out an open flame. In fact, what I was saying in my post was one of the negative aspects of social media trial-by-fires is the lack of dialogue it creates, instead it’s just about taking sides and identifying yourself by who you support.

[MadTrotter]

Well, the only thing this pointless article will do is unleash a torrent of abuse and cyberstalking by MT superfans towards the rider. Yep she sounds violent towards the horses, but it’s not really newsworthy. She’s not an icon with global influence. Just reeks of petty sour grapes.

Oh and just indicates that her poor horse had ALREADY been smacked around, and is STILL stopping. So obviously not an effective approach for him.

I think it’s time to accept MT’s sincere-sounding apology and move on.

[FitzE]

Agree with everything you wrote.

[Ghazzu]

@Sticky_Situation

t’s true that I haven’t specifically heard anyone say/post the exact words “Mark Todd needs to be cancelled.”

But I’ve seen a lot of posts, both the majority of comments on this thread as well as many on Facebook and elsewhere, saying things like “this video shows us who he really is” “he shouldn’t be training horses but unfortunately those that don’t care about horse welfare will continue to use him so he’ll he fine” “if he does this in public I’m sure he treats horses even worse at home!” And so on …

And likely >99% of those people would never have paid MT money for anything, any road.

[endlessclimb]

@enjoytheride

Look how many people on this thread know the exact answer to getting the horse in the water, and how different those answers are. And many of those people don’t have any experience at the level where horses have to drop into water, or even any experience eventing but feel perfectly qualified that they have the one and only answer.

There isn’t one and only answer for anything in horses, so stop trying to imply that’s what anyone said.

I have 100 bucks that says I can get that horse down that drop into water without beating him 10 times with a stick, though…

[enjoytheride]

I never implied that there was one singular way to training horses, although I think there are plenty of people who do think that. Just the opposite, and because of that it can be pretty easy to argue about the “wrong way” and the “right way” with all sorts of variations in between.

Even yourself thinks you know the right way to get the horse down the drop and is so certain you’d bet money on it. I’m not saying what Mark Todd did was right in anyway, but I’m saying if the answer was easy we’d need a whole lot fewer clinicians and horse trainers.

Drops into water seem to be a make or break for horses at that level, and I’ve seen plenty of horses “stuck” at Novice because they can’t get around a Training course without being eliminated at the drop into water. So it must not always be an easy answer.

[endlessclimb]

Maybe not. But beating the horse in was clearly not an acceptable answer, ever. There were a ton of other tools to try, but instead MT went to beating the tarnation out of the horse.

[tohorse]

The horse went on to win many competitions after and was 10 years old at the time so hardly at the age that he needed to step down. The reason why I was riding the horse and even showing the horse to buyers pretty much all of the time was that he was not gonna be a grand prix horse (unless you pushed him!) but could have made a good junior ride. That would also allow him to eventually step down. His owner, who did not even ride himself had decided that the horse was going to jump and that he had to be sold. My coach was paid to make it happen and he did it to the best of his ability, all welfare considerations in mind. He wanted and did the best for the horse given the circumstances - it’s easier to make a horse cart around a junior who maybe doesn’t have the perfect eye for distances than challenge the horse’s innate scope and try to have him struggle at the Grand Prix level. That’s a very real example of a trade-off that coaches face.

The best thing for the horse would always be to sit at a pasture - just like ideally all of us would retire independently wealthy at the age of 20. The reality is that very few of us manage that or even have perfect jobs, with a perfect boss who is always perfectly reasonable, understanding and provides the best equipment etc. etc. In fact how many people hate their jobs or at best feel no particular joy getting up in the morning? I’d not be surprised if it’s the majority. So I think it’s a bit unreasonable to expect that all horses will end up in perfect situations if we cannot even guarantee this for humans. We can strive for it, yes (just like for humans), but it’s unreasonable to expect that to be the default condition.

Then next thing people will tell that people who don’t know how to handle a horse should never own one, but how the hell is an ammy with a full time job (that pays for the board/chiro/saddle fitting) able to get a PhD in horse psychology and then ride in a perfectly balanced way from day 1 with a perfect command over her aids etc. That video is basically MT pushing the horse to make up for his rider’s mistakes/ineffective aids and, sure, some horses are more forgiving than others. So what do we do? Kill pen time for all the ones that are not saints? Retire them early? Or sell (to a worse situation) and try to find a saint (which is what ultimately a lot of people here seem to be doing)? Whenever I see a thread here asking whether to sell a horse, out come the posts “SELL HIM! LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO PAY FOR A HORSE YOU DON’T EVEN LIKE”, “you’re overhorsed” (probably true). But nobody asks - who wants to buy that kind of horse and what does the next owner/trainer do with the barrage of bad habits that the horse has accumulated and is leading the current owner to think it’s time to sell? Ever seen those horses that are up for sale/giveaway to a retirement home, people laughing (because who wants a retired horse with expensive needs and a habit of biting humans), and then a bad story pops up about what happened next? Yeah, sometimes it’s better to have them have a job.

I think we also tend to forget that most horses harbouring “bad habits” eventually end up in bad situations - just like people. So a trainer often faces a choice - do I push through and hopefully straighten things out even if it’s not pretty - or have the horse become increasingly “useless” and unpleasant to its owner/rider, potentially dangerous, and eventually sent to a worse situation? What if your horse not wanting to go through the gate away from the buddies - turned into small rears, turned into big rears eventually flipping over? What if this was not just under saddle but on the leadline, AND you were boarding so you were not the one tasked with turnout and the BO politely asked you to leave. For a lot of people, I bet even on here, it would be cowboy time. Have you ever seen an uncensored cowboy time? I have! MT video here pales in comparison. But somehow it’s OK to beat a horse to their head as long as the stick has a flag or is in color orange or it’s a cowboy and you’re not seeing it Do you think it’s just back rubs and caressing ears that happens that makes that spunky 3-year old that likes to buck rethink his life and come back as a perfectly well-behaved gentleman?

I actually bought a horse that nobody wanted to buy and buyers had fallen off and cried. The seller was kind enough to give me full disclosure. The horse is just about as much as I can handle, and I’m ashamed to admit - I have lost my patience on several occasions. In those moments of frustration I’ve toyed around with selling, but to who? There have been 2 other persons that can ride the pony and both were paid to ride! My husband is not joking when he says that we are stuck with the horse forever.

Again, I’m not saying there isn’t a better way or that beating a horse is justified, but describing real situations I’ve seen before my eyes and what the decision tree looks like.

[Spudsmyguy]

@Jealoushe

boomers, fall back.

Well that was a little insulting.

[Knights_Mom]

Just about everyone ever caught abusing an animal does the apology tour. When they do, it may or may not be genuine and THAT’S WHY ITS NOT ENOUGH.

It’s really not that complicated.

[enjoytheride]

@Knights_Mom

Just about everyone ever caught abusing an animal does the apology tour. When they do, it may or may not be genuine and THAT’S WHY ITS NOT ENOUGH.

It’s really not that complicated.

Then what IS enough?

[Knights_Mom]

I’m thinking a year suspension for a first offense as a start. Maybe the equivalent of horsey community service as well.

[gardenie]

"First my coach cursed me and yelled at me to go forward but ultimately it didn’t work, so in the heat of the moment he just ran after the horse with the only thing close to him - which happened to be a POLE.”

Yes, horses and people must have jobs. Just for the record, I am 59 so I grew up in a different era too. Yet this era asks us to treat everyone better. Your coach today would fall under Safe Sport sanctions with his cursing and yelling.

Page 11 Safe Sport Code

Emotional Misconduct
Emotional Misconduct includes (a) Verbal Acts, (b)
Physical Acts, © Acts that Deny Attention or
Support, (d) Criminal Conduct, or (e) Stalking.
Emotional Misconduct is determined by the
objective behaviors, not whether harm is intended or
results from the behavior.
a. Verbal Acts
Repeatedly and excessively verbally assaulting
or attacking someone personally in a mannerthat
serves no productive training or motivational
purpose.
b. Physical Acts
Repeated or severe physically aggressive
behaviors, including but not limited to, throwing
sport equipment, water bottles or chairs at or in
the presence of others, punching walls, windows
or other objects.

Yes, I agree that horses would like to be out in the field instead of our personal exercise machines. The mere fact that we own them and feel they owe us something does not mean we are entitled to treat them poorly. Because if we do, PETA will tell us we don’t know how to handle horses, therefore we cannot own them. If you read my earlier post, I have not been and am not perfect. I mentioned a lunge whip session with my mother. I didn’t mention the time my father’s horse didn’t win a race and he beat that horse in the stall after until he screamed. Or the use of cattle prods and electric buzzers.

In the case of your trainer and the jumper, if you rely on horses for a living, today you must be aware. The horses didn’t sign up, they were conscripted. I repeatedly tell people I believe horse riding will be gone in a couple of more generations, and we will only see horses on TV, movies, and circus like productions.

I do not think that Mark Todd should be banned, but his actions need attention from all of us. We need to talk about it and do better like the Chronicle article recently noted. We need to be advocates for our horses and be ready to say something when we know something is wrong. We need to find a quiet place in ourselves when we feel ourselves lose patience and know we can stop and find clarity/get help.

I am sorry you feel stuck with your current horse. I understand that sometimes the horse we have has something more to teach us.

I worked hard over the years to find a better way. I have been blessed to discover there are other ways that make sense to me as for years I’ve used Tellington Jones, and of late Masterson Method and Warwick Schiller.

[fordtraktor]

A year suspension from what? He retired in 2019. He served on a Board of Directors. I doubt he was compensated.

[Knights_Mom]

He gives clinics and lessons? He is a member of the organization? If he is suspended then other members cannot train with him, yes?

[AMWookey]

@Knights_Mom

He gives clinics and lessons? He is a member of the organization? If he is suspended then other members cannot train with him, yes?

He doesn’t need to be a member of an organization in order to give clinics or teach. Members of USEF who have been suspended for safe sport still teach…they just do it quietly and not at shows so that their clients don’t get called out.

He is likely not a member of any organization at this point, other than racing. Which has already been dealt with.

I think his apology is genuine, and that there are next steps he can take, to take ownership and responsibility, but the powers that be punishing him further aren’t that. I would love to see him host a forum or discussion, or be part of a clinic on alternative training methods (as a student). Be part of a call to action to have these discussions and to learn better to be better.

[Knights_Mom]

I disagree. I believe any clinic he gives should not be attended by members. And I’m happy to add the other punishments you’ve suggested except I for one would NEVER go to him for alternative training methods.