Nope. I do not think he’s been punished enough. An apology and resigning from a welfare group is not enough.
You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Oh and btw I did not ruin his career. He did.
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Are people not allowed to make mistakes and then apologize, acknowledge they made an error and move on a better horse person?
I’ve see some horse people do some pretty abusive things that make this pale in comparison and not regret it in the least so I would certainly hope that Mark has some room for forgiveness.
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I don’t do whataboutism.
Any professional who doesn’t realize that everyone has a camera in their pocket nowadays and that you shouldn’t beat a horse for a number of reasons needs the lesson to be perfectly and permanently clear.
Your dedication to defending an abuser is weird.
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So what degree of “crossing the line” would be considered forgivable? What if he was riding a horse that napped behind the leg, and he used a crop a time or two more than was really necessary? What if he rode a horse that looked to you like it was a touch lame, but he didn’t get spun by the ground jury? What if a horse bit or struck at him, and he used more force with the chain shank than you thought appropriate? What if he always treated horses perfectly, but he started a bar fight while he was out socializing? What if he rode in a poorly fitting saddle in an effort to save money, and made his horse’s back sore?
Where is the line between “he definitely shouldn’t have done that, but as long as it doesn’t keep happening he can be forgiven” and “his career should be ruined because of that single incident?”
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I’m defending someone’s right to make a mistake, recognize it was a mistake and apologize, and move forward. I’ve seen so much that is so much more horrifically worse that would be much more worthy of ruining someone’s career.
Where is the line between “he shouldn’t have done that but he was punished and forgiven and can move on” and “we’re going to ruin him for the rest of his life.”
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I will add to your TED talk and say that whenever someone starts in with “those boomers,” " those millennials," “those gen Xers” etc, I stop listening.
Back to the topic, I agree with whoever pointed out that Mark Todd’s apology and subsequent behavior have been classy. I am not blameless, especially when it comes to advocating for the horse in high-pressure situations, but I always strive to do better.
I hope that this incident inspires everyone to protect our horses, who give us so much.
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I’ll add to the TED talk and see that I’ve seen a FB post of trainers talking about their less than stellar moments training horses, how sorrowful it made them, how they learned from it and became better, and how they were glad they weren’t filmed at that moment and put on the internet for all to judge.
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Still weird that you are giving me a harder time than you would give Mark Todd.
I think you’re biased.
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This comment is victim blaming to a horse.
No. The horses behavior does not matter to me. Nothing warrants the reaction that we saw. I don’t care if the horse jumped it a dozen times, or repeatedly stopped after being handheld to the drop. It quite honestly has ZERO bearing on my opinion of the actions in that 2 min clip, and in my opinion -it shouldn’t.
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Exactly. Because if we banned every BNR that used their crop one too many times on a green horse, or used “aggressive” methods (growling, legs flapping, whatever) to get them over a jump, then there would be no one left. I used to frequently volunteer as a jump judge and I’ve seen some very BNRs hit a nappy horse five, six times. And that’s at a competition - who the hell knows what’s going on in training.
Hell, there’s a well-known rider whose horses are clearly back sore from his top-heavy, unbalanced position, and I have a feeling any reluctance on their behalf is treated at home with a crop and not a chiropractor (or an equitation coach, FFS). There’s a reason why so many BNRs haven’t condemned him the same way the armchair quarterbacks are.
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Well, that would now be a violation under “Abuse of the horse” at a recognized US horse trial. You’re not allowed to hit a horse “more than two times for any one incident”. I believe the current British eventing whip rule is similar.
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BNRs shouldn’t be above reproach, but it’s not a question that’s exclusive to BNRs. While I’ve never beat a horse with a tree branch to make it drop into water, I know there have been times when I was younger that I got frustrated with a horse and wasn’t as sympathetic as I should have been. Moments that wouldn’t present me in a good light on social media. While there are undoubtedly a select few on here who will claim they’ve never had such a moment, I would bet that in reality, there are more riders — at ALL levels, from beginners to experienced amateurs to BNRs — that have had at least one moment where their emotions got the better of them with a horse, than there are riders who haven’t.
So it’s not purely a rhetorical question. What is the “point of no return” where you can’t learn to do better and move on, but should instead be permanently shunned?
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It is, and do most of the time the TD doesn’t have the bandwidth to listen to a smurf jump judge and reprimand a rider for whip overuse. Sometime’s there’s other things that are a higher priority to them than following up on a report of X rider hitting their horse 4 times, especially if they think the amount of time between hits is adequate.
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Soon after the rule was changed here, I had two different TDs who specifically referred to it in the jump judge briefing and told us to call it in if we saw excessive use of the whip. I’m sure not all TDs agree, but at least some do. Change is slow, but hopefully happening.
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I don’t think it’s accurate (not to mention unhelpful) to describe posters here as ‘armchair quarterbacks’. That term describes people who have never played football let alone as quarterback for a professional team.
What you have here is people who DO ride horses in the same discipline as MT commenting on what they do, what they’ve done, and what they’ve seen. That’s one of the most interesting parts of eventing (and other horse sports): folks like the people commenting here are routinely in competition with Olympians. Hell, I’m likely one of the least experienced eventers here and I’ve been in Training divisions with Olympians more than once.
So discounting people’s responses, experience, and expertise here is nonsensical.
Again, for the folks railing against anyone who thinks this wasn’t a good idea at the time or any time: MT is not defending his actions; why are you?
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Has anyone posted this already?
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To me, this is part of the whole point – without having seen the incidents in the stable, what is the difference, where is the line, between what she did in the barn and what MT did with her horse? How does she perceive it?
I am not saying that MT’s actions with the rider’s horse caused the rider’s behavior in the barn. I’m just generalizing that the approach to horses demonstrated by a clinician, especially a BNR the caliber of MT, tends to soak in to the students and observers. As we saw by the cheering and laughter of the bystanders.
Is physical over-reaction the appropriate response to a horse that isn’t behaving or responding as we wish? Not moving over in a stall; shaking a foot being held for cleaning? Even if the reaction is in a different form, not with a tree branch.
Clinicians are teaching by their approach and attitude, as well as their methods. Intentionally or unintentionally. That’s not necessarily the reason a student would behave inappropriately elsewhere, but it certainly doesn’t help.
What should be our attitude and actions with situation such as: A horse that nuzzles a human, something some humans react to almost with a phobia. A horse that is a reluctant trailer-loader. A horse that constantly jigs and forges ahead while being led, even shouldering or just running over the human. And so on. These are all horse behaviors that can push certain humans’ buttons.
Clinicians set a tone for our approach to horses. If a well-known clinician is utterly intolerant of a resistant horse, then isn’t that the way we bring a horse in line in other settings as well? MT may not agree with that (I don’t know). But a lot of people will pick up on the tone of what they see from an instructor or clinician, without understanding the fine points.
The clinician’s attitude toward the horse can seep in to the observers and then spread like wet paint. Maybe that isn’t the reason any rider behaves this way in another setting. But it’s still setting a tone and an example for all of us in our conduct with our horses.
That’s part of the point that some of those commenting here and on FB and elsewhere would like to make, I think.
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If as people say EVERY BNT TRAINER resorts to abuse then horse sport needs to be banned.
Be careful what you are spouting.
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Well given that the rider leaving her job happened before the MT clinic that would be a bit of a stretch!
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Oof. Yeah, ‘Everybody does this/did this at one time’ and ‘I’ve seen worse/you live in a bubble if this is the worst you’ve seen’ are really not good looks for our sport. Maybe abandon this line of ‘defence’?
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