I can’t believe that horse didn’t punt his face off.
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After spending a lifetime training horses, I can say that no, there is NO reason to train/re-train a horse by whipping it 9 times with a switch off a tree.
There are better, more effective ways that don’t require such.
Is best all around, no matter who you are, to train where there is NO question that you don’t go there while training, so these controversies don’t happen.
As this trainer knew, once this happened, that it was wrong and apologized unconditionally.
He knows better, he realizes what he did may have seem like a good idea then, but escalated into a questionable training moment and is sorry, probably honestly, roll eye to himself sorry.
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Sorry if this has been said already but - I wonder why the technique of giving the horse a lead (i.e., send another horse in front and have the grey follow behind) into the water wasn’t tried? My trainer used this technique often. Also, have the other horses go stand on the other side of the water.
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It doesn’t always work. I had an ill-fated hunter pace last year w/two friends w/me as the “lead horse.” My horse would cross water – the other two would not. And their riders were frightened and that didn’t help. We were about as far away from the “start” as we could be. Not ideal.
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I’ve had this experience on a trail many times. If the rider doesn’t really want to go, and/or doesn’t know how to be convincing in quelling the fear, it’s a lost cause.
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When did the horse “say a big NO”?
The horse never said “no”. That’s what made MT’s response so additionally egregious.
As I saw it, the only thing the horse ever reacted to with even faint worry was all the swinging and swishing behind him when he didn’t need it to go forward. Then approaching the top of the bank MT went after the horse without giving the horse a chance, and that’s when fear overtook the horse. That’s what I saw in the ears, eyes, attitude and movement of the horse, throughout. Watch the video in “slow motion” using start-stop-start-stop on the controls and the horse’s forward attitude is quite apparent.
My interpretation of what happened is that MT didn’t respond to the horse he had in front of him, who was moving forward. MT responded to what he expected would happen based on what he’d been told.
And that leads me to believe that yes, that’s MT’s go-to for a reluctant horse. MT didn’t wait to see what this horse would do in this circumstance. The rider had communicated an expectation, and MT pulled out his standard response. That’s the way I read the video.
There is nothing rare or unusual about MT’s response. Many trainers/riders do the same thing when a horse stops or hesitates. MT was basically teaching a class in just that.
A big part of the public outrage is signaling to the riding/training public that a re-think of these methods is in order. Because as is being discussed, this response is standard by many trainers confronting a horse that is stoppy at ditches, banks or water.
Very much hope the MT is re-thinking what he will do next time, and all of the times after that.
The MT video horse was forward and willing. Until MT attacked it from behind. That’s the video I saw.
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They key to success is having the second horse not fall too far behind the first. And it may not work 100% of the time, but it sure as hell would have been a better alternative to what was done. It would have been worth a try.
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That would have required my followers to be a bit more “encouraging” to their horses than they were. I get it – I get all of it. Just sometimes…all the best intentions don’t work. Not excusing MT – but many are saying “get a lead horse” as if that is always the answer. In some situations, it doesn’t quite do the trick. (And this was just one ride w/horses I didn’t really know.)
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Your personal definition was not clarified in your original post.
“Boomer” is a common term for an age range, an entire generation classified as the post-WWII “baby boom”. As the term is used every day by many, many people who are not you.
It’s been defined that way for several decades. You didn’t invent the term. In fact the formal definition age range has been expanded as subsequent generational trends have come into more focus over time.
And it’s still an insult the way you used it. The “mindset” that you attribute to that entire generation - why else would you call it “boomer”? That’s the way your statement reads, even if you are trying to explain it away now.
For reference on the way it reads to everyone else in the thread, as we see from their responses in above posts:
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Exactly. Some horses will cross water/scary things blindly with a lead, but in many cases the rider still needs to give the horse some encouragement, and if they’re scared and shutting down and their body language is telling the horse “I don’t know if this is safe,” the horse is likely to still decide to err on the side of caution and decide not to go.
With a rider that has trained the horse to move forward from the leg and who stays confident and rewards even a little effort in the right direction, almost any horse will cross water without a big fuss.
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One of my main objections is that he didnt give the horse a chance to say “yes” in between swats. The horse came to the bank, hesitated and was repeatedly hit until it jumped forward. There was no chance for the horse (or rider) to process what was happening. Nobody has stated that the horse stopped at this bank in this clinic repeatedly, so I dont understand the rapid escalation. And there were seemingly no good instructions for the rider. I would understand the thinking more if the rider tried, then there was a swat or two and a pause to let the horse decide, repeat and then escalate as needed.
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The horse has been saying ‘no’ at drop fences into water for 2 seasons BE before this debacle. I believe (though wasn’t present at the time) that this was shared with MT and asked to be addressed in the clinic.
Aside, that water complex at Kirrie never rides well! One of our babies had a VERY uncharacteristic stop there last season, and the now Advanced/4* boy had a couple of very dodgy moments as a Novice. We always try to get up to school there before the season starts as if the can cope with that (and a big log drop earlier) they can cope with anything!
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@Mardi1 - One of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies! Thanks.
I have never actually done it, but I have said to students a time or two: “If you hit your horse one more time, I’m going to take that whip and hit YOU with it!” Tapping a reluctant horse once or twice to back up a leg aid that was ignored or sluggish is what the whip is for. Whipping a horse with it is NOT what it is for.
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Dbm
The slang term “Boomer” does refer to Baby Boomers. It is in recent years frequently used in a derogatory way by younger people to refer to older people who are out of touch and “living in the past” and set in their ways … but Baby Boomers have been “Boomers” long before gen Z started saying “Ok Boomer.”
I’m not even close to a Boomer — I’m a millennial — but there are plenty of Boomers out there that are kind and sympathetic horse trainers.
I realize that in slang it may come to be used to describe anyone with a certain mindset/behavior, but a whole generation of people are Boomers just because of when they were born, no matter what they behave like.
Edit: well, the post I’m replying to just poofed, so enjoy my TED talk about Boomers, lol
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Just watched the video… I guess I grew up in a different era, but I don’t really see anything shocking that warrants a ban or a 100% clear case of abuse either. Would your response have been different if you knew the horse was clearing water fences the day before no problem? I think one thing we don’t really see is the history of this pair and that changes everything.
I was once in a similar situation with my coach running after me and he hit the horse with one of those heavy poles (!!!). Since it was an old one with some cracks it actually broke in half! If you had taken it out of context and filmed it - it would’ve earned the guy a lifetime ban, but I think he overall did well given the context and what tools he had at his disposal in that specific moment. I rode with him for years and he was kind to his horses, hardly used gadgets, I don’t recall any polling and we always rode without spurs, sticks and simple snaffles at home. The very fact that I could ride any and all of his horses as a teenager, even the young ones tells you that they were well behaved and not muscled into submission.
This specific horse was a stallion that was doing 130-140 and I was an exercise rider and we were practicing some lines and gymnastics. I was a gangly teen and was riding without spurs or a stick as usual. The horse wasn’t showing enough forward and started slowing before the big jumps and this was a horse that my coach had worked hard to get his dirty stopper behaviour out from prior rider. First my coach cursed me and yelled at me to go forward but ultimately it didn’t work, so in the heat of the moment he just ran after the horse with the only thing close to him - which happened to be a POLE.
You could argue that I shouldn’t have been jumping 4-5 foot fences at my age, without spurs, stick or on a stallion, but other times I did it no problem! He was the perfect schoolmaster for all intents and purposes. It was the only time my coach deployed this method in years which is why I still remember it fifteen years later. Ultimately the horse got the right message, we finished the ride on a great note and the horse went on to win many more competitions. Oh, and he did do one more dirty stop on me in front of a buyer months later that got me off over his ears 
Needless to say they didn’t buy him!
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It was a beating. He needs punishment.
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Yes. It would be even stronger horror and disgust. Horses don’t just stop doing something they are totally comfortable doing for no reason. Whether it’s physical discomfort or a mental issue, beating the horse is not the answer, figuring out the problem and solving it humanely is the answer.
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“The horse wasn’t showing enough forward and started slowing before the big jumps and this was a horse that my coach had worked hard to get his dirty stopper behaviour out from prior rider. First my coach cursed me and yelled at me to go forward but ultimately it didn’t work, so in the heat of the moment he just ran after the horse with the only thing close to him - which happened to be a POLE.”
I think that term dirty stopper should be retired. Horses stop for a reason. They don’t have forethought or reasoning. They basically want to get a release of pressure. Pain is the primary reason for horses stopping. Fear of the question is another. We don’t beat horses for those things or chase them with scary things. We fix the pain and in absence of that, train better for understanding.
“I just watched the video… I guess I grew up in a different era, but I don’t really see anything shocking that warrants a ban or a 100% clear case of abuse either.”
The more proof of our lack of knowledge of what is appropriate over time will certainly give PETA plenty of fodder for retiring all horse sports. Mark Todd saw the video and apologized, resigned from a Horse Welfare gig, and has kept his mouth shut. He hasn’t been banned. However, his actions have called all of us to look at ourselves and DO BETTER.
Sometimes horses doing a 130-140 need to drop down when they start stopping. We all get older, and it is trainers’ and riders’ responsibility to look at their horses and make good decisions.
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Don’t you think he’s already been punished enough? He’s already apologized and resigned from his position. What else do you want to happen to him? You’ve stated this several times, to the point of ruining his career, boycotts and letter writing campaigns and have equated it to rape?
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