Fair enough. You and I agree way more than we disagree, so I think we should just consider this a quibble and move on.
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Bad horse training, unnecessarily abusive definitely a consideration.
What bothered me also was the laughter from the audience.
Even if it was a nervous laughter in a stressful moment, is unsettling.
I have seen once a BNT get mad out of control and hit completely and unasked for, a horse, hard, with a chain lead rope about 4-5 times, it left welts.
It happen so fast, I came in on them, trainer quit and left in a huff, never mentioned afterwards.
I was so very shocked, completely out of the blue, that was a strict but excellent trainer, never before or after being any but very concerned with the horse first.
I wonder if that trainer lost his cool under pressure that one time in his life, or if that kind of training happens more often?
I expect that is what the ruling board that may sanction him, it seems sanctionable, will have to decide.
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Absolutely agree with this. Of course there are nuances.
Talking it through to find out where different peopleâs thresholds are, where their understanding is re. whatâs abuse and whatâs not yet abuse, is so useful in a discussion. I went to sleep thinking about it. To me, personally, any human aggression towards animals is abusive. When a hand is raised to intentionally punish and dominate, itâs abuse. Within that category, there are definitely nuances. As a 9yr old barnrat I witnessed a stable manager drive his big tractor right up to a tied horse that was, known by us all, maximum-terrified of tractors. The horse shied back, scrambled, slipped, lost all footing, fell down on the ground from sheer panic, all while tied. The man grinned and even revved his engine at the horse. It was awful awful awful to watch. The horse scrambled back up, still tied, shaking like I have never seen a horse shake before, and I spent the next hours with him to calm him. Another time that same barn manager took a shovelâs blunt side to beat a horse that wouldnât stand still enough for the farrier. He beat and beat and beat that horse rhythmically and without hesitation, dozens of times. The farrier scratched his head and waited, I stood by in knots and cried. And, lastly, another time I watched a trainer beat a young horse with a lunge whip for not wanting to move forward on the circle. Whacked the horse repeatedly, again and again, full force.
For 30yrs I have always owned and ridden and loved hot hot horses, worked at the racetrack, in dressage competition barns, am 6ft tall and not timid, and have done my share of being âstrongâ with a horse, being âfirmâ when needed. But I can say I have never ever raised my hand at an animal to scare and to cause pain, and I will insist on calling it abusive. Itâs not ok, no matter how frustrated we humans get. We cannot, simply cannot, allow ourselves to resort to beatings and coercion and call it horsemanship.
Someone here made the suggestion that the gray horse should have been allowed to follow another experienced horse in and out of the water â old cavalry training methods (and even in Ireland the hurdlers are still trained and motivated that way) that work well.
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absolutely.
I think Iâm still just in shock and utter disappointment. I wonât cancel MT in my mind, but my love for him will never be the same sadly.
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I think it was because of the footballer that has been charged due to kicking his cat?
There is another side to this as well ⊠people mentioned the crowd approving as the horse goes in the water ⊠the âbystanderâ effect.
Generally speaking, we donât say âstopâ when we think a clinician is crossing the abuse line. As riders, spectators, onlooking trainers.
The person with the greatest power to stop a clinician who is crossing a line is the rider of the horse being abused. âNo, stop.â And ride away from the spot. But riders arenât mentally prepared to do that, because we place ourselves in the clinicians hands for the duration of the ride. Weâve probably never even considered it, maybe never crossed our mind that it would come up.
Somehow clinicians possess all of the social power during the clinic. None of us seems to know how to intervene, as nicely as possible, but effectively.
We donât know what to say. Maybe âhey, thatâs a bit extreme, can we find another way that isnât so terrifying and painful for the horse?â Or something.
In that video I count the rider, 5 onlookers, plus the person making the video, making 7 people present with full attention on the incident, in addition to the clinician. So out of 8 total individuals we are chastising only 1, the clinician. Perhaps that is appropriate. But the other 7 also allowed the horse to be whipped as well.
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There is the bystander effect and the stunned into silence effect. I witnessed a trainer beat a horse who was overfaced by a huge log out of the water. The horse tried and tried but couldnât do it and was starting to panic. The trainer beat the snot out of him and never did get him over that log. The few of us that were there that day were silent and I think more than one moved on to a different trainer after watching that fiasco.
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I am utterly shocked that people are defending this behaviour. There is no shade of grey. I donât care who you are - Itâs unacceptable to hit a horse from the ground with a tree branch. Period.
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Iâm guilty. I had a trainer repeatedly kick my horse in the shoulder while riding him over and over, trying to teach the horse to move his shoulders. I was horrified at the time but I just sat there and said nothing. I donât ride with that person ever anymore but I still donât know why I couldnât speak up. Itâs not in my nature to sit by and not say anything but I did. I still feel terrible.
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Same. Trainer told me to slam the stirrup into the horseâs shoulder over and over. I tried to pretend that I couldnât balance myself/wasnât flexible/strong enough to give the horse more than a half-hearted tap. Tbh there were plenty of other unsavory things about this trainer and this was just the final straw. I never went back to that trainer and found a new barn 2 weeks later.
At the end of the day though, even though alarm bells had been going off in my mind the whole time, I never called her out on it and said âNo - this is not an appropriate way to train a horse.â
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Hear hear!
I agree with you. If we donât learn humane, evidence-based training methods FAST, horseback riding is going to become completely socially unacceptable. It is, in fact, entirely possible to train horses without EVER hitting them.
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Besides the clinic effect, thereâs also the âschooling the waterâ effect.
If like many riders, this rider doesnât have many opportunities to school water, she may have signed up for this clinic partially for the opportunity to school a water complex. That creates a âgotta get it done!â mentality thatâs not conducive to good training.
The first thing that needs to happen in this situation, similar to the common horse trailer loading scenario, is take the energy and pressure out of the situation. Have all the âhelpersâ take 10 steps back, de-escalate, have everybody, including the horse, take a breath. I would even walk the horse away from the obstacle and pet and scratch until it lets go some of the tension. Then reapproach the obstacle with the attitude of thereâs all the time in the world, and I donât mind standing on the edge of the jump down into the water until dark or the horse gets bored and relaxed.
With a trailer, I make the trailer as open and inviting as possible, and using a stick or dressage whip, reinforce basic in hand training - forward when I go forward, stop when I stop or when I place the butt of the whip in front of the chest, forward again when I move the butt of the whip away, praise and treats for the forward. Takes, at most, 15 minutes to get a horse into the trailer this way.
Iâve trained less than a dozen horses to jump down into water, eventing style, but havenât encountered problems with any of them. Or training trail or hunting horses to cross water calmly. Time, patience, common sense and a good lead usually does the trick.
Someone else pointed out that if once the horse hesitated jumping into the water over the small bank, training should have backed up; going back to walking around in the water and walking in and out of the un-revetted portion; NOT set up for failure by attempting the bigger drop into the water.
And following another horse until theyâre confident enough to do it on their own is a great technique.
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I was at a xc schooling and we were working on dropping into the water. My horse was unsure and hesitant so I just worked on stepping off a very low bank onto dry ground until he was confident and asked again about the water and he stepped off quietly and trotted through proud as punch.
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That sure did go wrong. He is fortunate he did not end up getting schooled himself, with a horse in reverse and a double barrel to the chest.
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Iâm a little confused as the horse seemed to be pretty well behaved and willing. They do several passes and take the complex at different points. Does s/he not even go down that bank once already before the pass during which s/he is beaten?
Of course, I wasnât there (not that anything excuses what was done). But the grey seems generally willing, showing no dangerous behaviour, and does several passes without incident before the beating. I cannot sort out how it went from the pair going around calmly to - that!
Also, has the owner spoken out? I see link above someone who presents a different view and also seems to heavily criticise the rider for releasing the video. Has the rider responded, does anyone know?
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I rode a horse for a while that had âwater issuesâ and it did turn out he had a vision problem. Lovely horse who topped out at Novice even though he otherwise had the talent to go Intermediate.
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Finally!
Everyone is so busy holding Mark Todd accountable but somehow overlooking the owner and rider of the horse who is PAYING HIM to do this.
Itâs time for amateurs who choose to own luxury sport pets to take responsibility when their decisions and their dollars support bad training and abusive practices.
Itâs time for the overall culture to hold these ADULTS accountable and not make excuses because they are moon eyed amateurs who place an undue level of hero worship onto their trainer and are facing âsocial pressureâ.
(And letâs examine this âsocial pressureâ for a second, too. Why is the âsocial pressureâ automatically âi better let the clinician do whateverâ, and not âeveryone else watching whatâs happening is going to expect me to pull the plug on this, I better make sure my friends will still talk to me at the end of todayâ. Why is the social pressure stacked up this way and not the other way? Because the culture of the sport is that amateurs and owners arenât expected to take responsibility, they expect to get a âpassâ because they arenât the trainer, theyâre just paying them, and they want to reserve the right to claim innocence and not use their brains or ever have to have a difficult conversation.)
You want to own a horse?
Newsflash part of that is protecting and advocating for that horse no matter who you piss off.
Canât handle that?
Think thatâs really expecting too much and people should be more understanding of your social anxiety?
Donât buy a horse, then.
Every single time a professional is suspended or sanctioned for abusive practices, the owner of the horse should be suspended as well, and all of their horses should be suspended from competing for the duration too. If you are reading this thinking to yourself âWhy should I be suspended for something my trainer does? What do you mean my entire season at Wellington should be over if a single one of my horses becomes the recipient of an excessive whipping infraction??â, congratulations I am talking directly to you and you should reread until you capiche.
Imagine how fast 90% of this bullshit would stop if we held the people who pay for it accountable for it.
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Obviously we donât have context about what happened before or after this moment but I for one would be pissed if a trainer came at my horse like that without my consent. The whole situation was not safe for horse, rider, or coach.
That horse is a complete saint. My mare would have literally killed me or the coach if anyone came after her like that.
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Iâm glad Iâm not the only one who thought that! I was starting to think I was going crazy. What I see, up to the tree branch, is a cobby grey horse kind of thumping along, with a rider with a rather loose leg, not using her stick, or really providing much encouragement until he runs out of gas. I hate to criticize a rider (not being a great one myself) but itâs relevant, because it would seem like suggesting she use her stick and perhaps her leg and seat more would be the natural suggestion, versus rattling the branch. (Not to keep psychologizing Todd, but maybe there was even an element of frustration with the rider being taken out on the horse, now Iâll show her that her horse can go forward if she makes him, which is still not okay.)
Re: the rider being an advocate. One of the frustrating things about being âchasedâ with a lunge whip or any kind of device is itâs hard to stop and tell the person doing it no. But I remember reading she was a minor (17) and was uncomfortable coming forth until now, because she was so intimidated.
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