Oops! Mark Todd cruelty

I just watched the longer video a few more times. I keep seeing a lameness when the horse is in the water, then it goes away on flat ground. Perhaps the lifting of the legs and harder pushing in the water exacerbates some discomfort, which would also make sense as to why the horse doesn’t hesitate until the wall is 2’ high - that’s when it hurts on landing?

Just pondering where the disconnect happened. Also, why not do the small one 5 or 6 times, instead of just twice which just barely scratched the surface of building the horse’s confidence?

So many ways this could have gone right. What a shame.

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I am totally baffled still why people would ever repeatedly spank a horse to get them into something scary - particularly when the spanking doesn’t stop even when the horse is “thinking about it”. That is a recipe to make a horse terrified of something forever. There were multiple multiple multiple opportunities to take the pressure off that horse and let him think about it for a minute, as he was thinking about doing it, but then WHACK here comes another spanking.

I don’t have a problem with a swat or two to reinforce “ya gotta go forward, friend” but when the horse is actively thinking about doing what you’re asking, remove the pressure for god’s sake. Even if he ends up sort-of pouring himself off the wall, who cares? Come around and go again, no problem.

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@endlessclimb, well-said. I felt the same. There seemed to be a rush for a result here that was hard to understand - and even harder to understand seeing the longer video. A tiny bit of patience, more trips to gain confidence, and even giving the horse a chance to get a “tap tap” from the crop (I can’t remember if the rider used it and have no desire to re-watch the video) all seem like much more obvious solutions to BUILD CONFIDENCE than what happened.

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On the view of the bigger picture I find myself caught here.

We do not, as an average majority of people, have the inclination to call out wrong behavior in public settings. If you don’t believe or agree with me, look to the TV show “What Would You Do?” with John Quinones.

Over and over in planted situations where people should stand up and say something, they do not. Until the random one person does. Or the situation presented crosses a line in someone’s proverbial sand. But the point I am making is that with HUMANS, who all speak and communicate better than horses, we do a terrible job standing up for our fellow man.

Now let’s moving this reality to the clinic situation that this video derives from, admittedly 2 years ago. It’s a time to train with a dual Olympic Gold Medalist and honestly one of the icons of our sport. I’m sure the star struck factor was at play with the riders and possibly extended connections as well

No human on the video is outwardly looking affronted. No one appears to be moving towards Mark to tell him off. And sure it’s a SHORT video from what I am positive was at least a 90 min - 2 hour clinic. But the reason the video was posted in the early comments back and forth with the video owner, was that one of their friends said it would be funny and should get a laugh. (Websters: new definition of “Backfire” :roll_eyes:)

The same LACK of motivation to be the person to stand up and say “Hey this is not ok” is as present here as on the Tv show. One of the other riders from this group has (NOW) come forward and said that they were not ok with this. But I mean…2 years later, in the heat of a viral media storm. Seems a bit like band wagoning. Even if she does mean what she says, the timing of her convictions coming to light is a bit rough for this onlooker.

I have been in the event world since 1984 and I have seen training methods done that have killed horses, injured horses and people and in general sucked a lot. None of them are particularly in use today, but how we train a sentient being has changed over the years. Lots of ways for the better, some not as much.

We now have outrage at poling and carpet nub rails. Back even 5 years I know I couldn’t count how many barns had the carpet nub rails as standard parts of their equipment. I know team riders now that have different types of rails with the same intent. Make the horse jump better if it dangles a leg. That’s important for any competition horse. But how you train that is still very diverse.

In the way we look to this video to help define our paths forward, we need to acknowledge the human and training failures of life. The advent of cell phone cameras will bring more things like this to light and with PETA and other associations out there, training a horse without some long held methods that skirt the definition of ‘abuse’ may have to get to the exit from our programs a bit faster.

It’s not about ignoring how we used to do it, but rather finding better ways to do it going forward. But lest you all think you know the only way, I promise you if you go to one unrecognized HT in Area 2 or one XC Schooling day anywhere popular, that will show you more people who are going to be doing it wrong forever. And here’s the kicker, the situation becomes that IF we are saying that Sir Mark Todd shouldn’t do this and we know better, then you have to be able to walk up to ACTUAL people you may or may not know and be ok telling them their way is wrong also. It’s one thing to jump on social media and scream indignance, it’s quite another to walk up to a current rider beating the crap out of a young horse to get it down a bank and telling them off.

That, is the part that will be the hardest to overcome, for the sake of the horses and just having a sport going forward.

This forum has outed PLENTY of eventers over the years for atrocious behavior and treatment of animals, and yet all those people still have barns, horses, students etc. Maybe we should work a bit harder on our landscape and ideals here first. It would be best if we could use this video as motivation to pay more attention to what happens this year in things we see with our own eye live, and not on the internet.

Em

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The owner has posted; I believe it was she who posted the video on Instagram (a shorter video on TikTok as well). On the facebook post, if you scroll through the photos, there’s actually a photo of her sitting on the grass with the horse, and there are several comments by her about the incident.

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I agree with you 100%. The latter is really hard, no doubt.

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@Xctrygirl I feel like some people, even with being told off, just don’t have the right mindset for training a horse through a scary or sticky obstacle. They will try to muscle them through no matter what. There are people on this forum that have described beating their horse into water, then are surprised when the horse doesn’t like water.

What does it take to get people to be more educated on pressure and release? This is a problem both with the overly timid rider who will never apply pressure, and the overly aggressive rider who will never take the pressure off.

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Half the people in this thread think is totally fine, maybe start with them.

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AND officials need to have your back.

I was a H/J show (schooling show) a few years back and a local rated trainer was there. Her students pony (PONY!!) wouldn’t go over one of the jumps. The trainer then proceeded to whip the ever loving sh*t out of the pony who just sat there and took it. Then, the coach ripped the rider off, got on, and continued to whip the piss out of it.

I went and complained to the show manager. I went and complained to the judge, who by the way was sitting on the side watching. No one did anything. No one said a word, because its a trainer from a big barn bringing lots of entries every year.

I made a FB post that night about it, didn’t name the trainer, but I was the one chastised over it. The entire community around this person hates me to this day. So it’s not always so simple as just saying something.

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Take a look at the wider issues with parents raising kids, adults raising pets, and look at the USA society as a whole.

This is one tiny tiny segment of a bigger issue countrywide and surely worldwide as well.

People refuse to ask for or accept help. Doing it ourselves has many roots but among them are ego, pride, lack of funds and just general beliefs that they know better.

I don’t expect any sport to have the answers for this. Trainers push people too hard, some too soft. Same with teachers in schools. Same with peer pressure from social circles (Think Stepford Wives but worse)

You cannot fix a societal problem in the microcosm of a sport. You need to fix it in society first. Then it might improve as it filters down to the past times and hobbies.

Really this is all Sociology 101.

Em

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Of course they hate you.

You made them think the Emperor was Naked. And they blinked for a sec.

And now they have to blame you for that blink.

Your situation is still Sociology, but the spring course, 102.

Em

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I must be reading a different thread than you are? Or maybe you are exaggerating to make a point?

I see not one post in this whole thread that thinks this is totally fine, even if I tilt my head sideways, close one eye and stand on one foot.
What I see is some posters saying this sucks, is wrong, very wrong, but screaming abuse and chop off his head might be going a tad too far.
That is not even on the same page as ‘totally fine’ and even then it is not half the people in the thread saying it.

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Read again or dont be obtuse because the words weren’t written exactly in that way. Don’t come here and start arguing semantics with me. Some of these posters doth protest too much…

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Responding to this video is not a part of “cancel culture”, but rather an effort to dismantle a culture that allows and normalizes abuse and fear-based training methods to continue in the larger equestrian community. And not only does this culture affect our horses’ well-being, it also affects our sport and lifestyle on a whole. Even now, major corporate sponsors associated with both Mark Todd and equestrian sport have voiced displeasure at the incident, and the general public will never understand normalized abuse. The longevity of our sport and livelihood is fragile, and the internet never forgets.

How you treat your animals is how you interpret the world, and dismissing a perspective outside of your own is a distasteful habit that many have fallen into. We can do better, and we can promote superior training methods for the benefit of horses and riders everywhere.

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Standing right next to you, feeling exactly the same.

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I see not one post where people are screaming to chop his head off? Only discussing how wrong it is and the disappointment.

Funny some are more upset by my posts than seeing someone whip the sh*t out of a horses legs.

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You’ve been having a real rough time lately. You won’t see this because you ignored me when I posted something you didn’t 100% agree with in the current events section, but you seem really uptight and abrupt lately.

Maybe have a cup of tea. Smell some flowers.

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I agree, the horse seems to be a bit lacking confidence and behind the leg but going around quietly and willingly enough. Even after the beating his reaction was remarkably level-headed. I’m not seeing the “OMG that horse was terrified!” claimed in some of the posts. I don’t know what led up to these moments or how many times the horse had stopped before the video started, but in the video the horse didn’t appear to be mentally checked out or frazzled.

That doesn’t excuse it at all, and it doesn’t mean the horse wasn’t afraid and feeling pain after he got hit. But he even then he cantered off pretty quietly and handled it more calmly than probably 9/10 horses would. He seems like a nice sort.

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@endlessclimb,

THAT is an amazing post.

You just managed to summarize, in one third the space and words, exactly what I was trying to say.

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Actually I ignored you because I don’t value your opinion or have any respect for you at all. But thanks for taking the time to post yet another condescending post.

I opened this one because another poster agreed with you that I do respect.

Sorry I’m not sugar coating my replies to people who support things like using fear and pain your horse to get it trained.

When some of the posters in this thread are known to use these methods themselves. Ya, I’m gonna get prickly at people brushing these things off

@Sticky_Situation if you can’t see the fear then why did the horse move forward? Because it was afraid of getting hit again. Pretty cut and dry. Maybe take some time and research the pain response in horses faces. Pretty easy to see.

Its easier for people to attack me then to answer to their own beliefs. That’s fine, I’m used to it. Not going to shut up because of it though, we owe it to our horses.

It’s easier for posters to attack me and cut apart my responses because maybe my stance makes them question their own methods. Good. I have not at all come after Mark or tried to have him cancelled. My posts are purely about the nature of what happened.

But to have a pile on me saying they don’t see the abuse I’m saying is there, they don’t see the fear, it’s not a big deal etc etc. Just plain ol deflecting from the uncomfortable situation we are presented with.

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