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Opinion Piece About American TB's in Eventing

I do. I know it occurs in all breeds, and I know that diagnostics have improved greatly, so my anecdote should be taken with a grain of salt. But no one stumbles across kissing spine accidentally. There seems to always be a pretty dramatic change in the horse’s attitude under saddle and in their way of going that requires medical intervention to get to the bottom of why it happened. And then after spinal taps looking for EPM and Lyme tests and whatever else, kissing spine is the culprit 9 times out of 10 with OTTBs. And I just don’t remember the behavioral symptoms that often come along with KS happening so much 15-20 years ago.

And then in talking to other professionals on the horse care side of the industry, it certainly sounds like I’m not the only one who has made that connection. A good vet friend of mine has noticed a pretty significant increase in the rate of OTTB’s with kissing spine within her practice and has been trying to talk me out of buying one for years. My farrier has noticed the same thing too, although he tells his clients he doesn’t want to hear about anything above the stifle.

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I am not disagreeing on your statements, but I do approach the claim with some skepticism. I think we have always had these behavioral changes and chock them up to the cause du jour, meaning whatever we have recently gotten good at diagnosing.

But I do agree back problems like KS are a very real concern and certainly aren’t unseen in TBs, even on the track. I just am not sure I would describe it as a “prevalence” based on breed. I would instead say it’s something that occurs in horses regardless of breed and we happen to diagnose it frequently in TBs due to many of them having show horse careers where their owners have the means and interest to pursue a diagnosis.

I’m sure he’s being funny but one of the leading contributors to back pain in horses is bad shoeing. Another reason why it may appear TBs are more prone to KS— long, hard careers in spanning multiple disciplines, often with questionable farrier work the entire time.

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Oh of course the farrier was joking. He is a real smart ass, but he is also really good at his job, and he always learning more too.

I wonder if my perspective is related to where I live? Maybe I just see more Thoroughbreds in general and that’s why I made the jump to “most OTTBs have kissing spine” when it should be “many sporthorses have kissing spine.”

But regardless, despite being a proud thoroughbred lover for years, I’m really nervous to get another one.

She also went into the comment section on FB stating that people need to add Arab or QH blood into the TB to make them better. I replied with a photo of Kids Classic Style and sarcastically said yes please lets infuse QH blood into the TB breed :wink: I told her if she can play the “sweeping generalization of a breed” game, so can I. She clearly doesn’t know anything about glaring issues with other breeds.

PSA I know not every QH is like KCS, he’s an extreme example just like she used in her (horribly unfair) photo comparison.

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Side note, I’m working with my first Awesome Again OTTB. Holy crap, does she have potential for eventing/jumper ring. She is SO catty, natural lead changes, so balanced, so light. My only complaint is how waify/slab sided she is, but it doesn’t seem to impact her at all. Really nice horse.

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Y’all might wanna check out this H/J thread … and refer it to the woman who wrote the article in this thread’s OP:

I don’t know if it discredits her theories or is merely an exception to the rule.

I‘m re-looking this up now and I believe I got it from the department of agriculture freedom of information documents from 2004, which I know is ancient and not very useful. I think I did a paper on this when I was in high school and the 20% number has stuck with me. Here’s a link I found but again, I know that’s not super helpful: http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/FOIA%2006-444%20Horses%20slaughtered%20by%20breed%20type.pdf

Your comment made me actually try to search for more recent breed specific data but I’m coming up short. If anyone has a link to newer data I’d be really interested in it. The 20% number seems accurate to me based off of just the unwanted horse ads I see on Craigslist though. Id be really happy if that number was way wrong but I’m kind of afraid it isn’t.

Thanks for mentioning me here! I posted this on my thread, but here are my very long-winded thoughts about why, I, an experienced amateur in a Grand Prix rider’s AA show barn bought a cheap, cheap OTTB filly off a 10-second trot video, LOL.

So I thought a lot about why I decided to do a Thoroughbred project this winter. And, you know, the reality of the situation I found myself in is I am in a great program with a great trainer who gives me a ton of opportunities. I’ve been super lucky to have ridden some incredibly nice sale horses—got to spend a couple of months showing a Grand Prix horse in little jumpers, for instance, and that’s fantastic. But the reality of that situation is that those horses are fleeting, right? It’s a constant turnover. And now, with my trainer about to go to Florida, the opportunities for me for the winter are fewer.

So here’s where I was: I’m at the point in my life where I am lucky enough that I can shoulder the expenses for a horse, I can shoulder going to a couple of smaller local, rated shows whenever I want to, and my options were to buy something very (VERY!) inexpensive or put that money toward a lease. Looking objectively at what I could have leased at the amount that I had to spend, it probably would have been something a little older, maybe something that you’d do 1m on or maybe 1.10m. Maybe an adult hunter that’s been there and done that, but maybe it isn’t the fanciest thing. And so I really realized, “What am I going to get out of that?”

And I absolutely don’t mean to say that from a perspective of “I walk in the ring and find all eight jumps every time,” because that’s not the case. That’s not the case for many amateurs. Right? But, at this stage, of riding for 25 years now, do I need to jump a course in a lesson every day? Do I need to flat a horse that is super broke through the winter when it’s 20 degrees, and my motivation is low anyway?

So the clear option for me was that I allocate my money as best I can and find something inexpensive with the goal of fun and learning. Next… why an OTTB?

I grew up riding them. I think I’m kind of the last generation to do that in some form, and I’m not old by any means (early-30s). I think we’re kind of the last set of riders that maybe knew how to ride them or knew what they were like.

Even if they were tougher or hotter or harder to get to the ring, I have always known them to be brave. I’ve always known them always to jump. I’ve always known them to be pretty personable, social horses that are easy to work around in the barn—and you can’t say that for a lot of young warmbloods.

This particular filly has obviously not done anything. Like, she is as fresh off the track as they come, but she’s in the fancy barn now, and we don’t know what’s she going to be or what job she’ll want to do. It’s too soon. We don’t know enough about her to say what our goals are. But the goal I feel like I can confidently achieve is to bring along a well-adjusted young horse who is a pleasure to work around in the barn and who is safe and sensible. And maybe the end goal is to confidently jump around 2’6”… Maybe I’ll bring her up to 3’? Maybe she’s someone’s great eventer or dressage horse?

It’s hard to say but, but I’ll also add that I am really heartened by the support in the Thoroughbred classes, right. If I were going to do the option this winter where I paid to lease an adult horse for the winner, those classes don’t pay up here. But if I do some of the TIP or Take2 classes, those pay. It’s not a ton, but it’s the difference between a $200 show versus a $50 show bill. That’s not nothing to me.

You know, I ultimately still believe in the thoroughbreds. I think there’s been an increase in their value. I disagree with the notion that we’re trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by using them as sport horses. I think they’re the ultimate sport horse. I think their versatility and their mind is unmatched. When they are fit and well-groomed, I find them incredibly beautiful to look at. I already find the filly beautiful to look at, and she’s 150 pounds underweight.

I also think, like any of them, it’s all about the brain. We’re going to go really slow with her, so today, I took her in the ring with a rope halter and led her around. My trainer was schooling another horse. And she walked around, essentially on her own accord, and sniffed every jump, watched the horse jump (which was pretty remarkable to her at first because she’s clearly never seen anything like that), and was led over poles which she stepped over carefully but without a spook or any study. And our indoor is SPOOKY AF. In the end, she was licking and chewing and quietly standing next to me. Then she was perfect for the farrier.

I think it’s an adventure. It’s something to work on this winter that is more rewarding to me than maybe jumping around a course every day—or heck, jumping at all. And, you know, what’s the point of trailering to do a show every weekend this winter for a ribbon in a 3’ class? So, yeah, I’m excited about the journey, and I think it’s possible to do it with the right support team. About 99% of horses in the barn right now are warmblood. But I want to encourage and promote the Thoroughbred sport horse as a hunter, and hopefully, this filly will help us do that and that more H/J riders can do it themselves.

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I think more than one thing can be true. I think that TBs can make wonderful sport horses in a variety of disciplines, I think people need to stop perpetuating breed stereotypes because they don’t know what they’re doing, I think that some of the anti-TB attitudes come from a place of elitism, however I still think the racetrack industry is still breeding way too freaking many of them a year and the rest of the horse world can’t keep up with the supply… which honestly, it shouldn’t be the rest of the horse world’s responsibility.

I think it’s kind of a circular issue where you have people (like myself) that are hesitant to buy them because they’re harder to resell because there’s so many of them which obviously leads to less demand and more supply and then the problem gets worse.

I fully agree that the anti-TB elitist crap needs to stop but breeders need to stop breeding so many freaking horses a year too.

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Fewer TBs are being produced each year. The 2020 projected foal crop is 18,950. Ten years ago it was 25,995. 15 years ago it was 35,050.

Maybe 19,000 horses is still too many for you…but it’s a lot less than what it used to be.

And when there are limited racehorses available, some trainers will push an older horse on a bit longer.

As OTTB prospects, we all want them as sound 4-5yos. That is less likely to happen if there are drastically fewer horses at the tracks…tracks still need starters, and those “less competitive” horses will remain in the races instead of retiring young and sound.

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=2

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Sorry I don’t buy that logic. The horses that have more starts are the ones that are good at their jobs. That’s going to be the case if there’s 5000 horses born a year or 45000. More TBs born per doesn’t equal a lower dispersal of starts per horse.

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Most racehorses that are best at their jobs retire to the breeding shed before age 6 or 7.

There are a lot of runners at Presque Isle, Charles Town, Penn, Mahoning, and Finger Lakes that are over 5yo (8yos are not uncommon in low claimers) and earn less than $1000 per start. That is not a “good” racehorse, but it fills the card and keeps stalls for a trainer’s better horses that may run less frequently. (At many tracks, stalls are free but allocated to certain number of runners/starters…some trainers keep a sound older claimer who can run every 10-14 days, even if it finishes 5th, 6th, 7th for $600, so an allowance horse can run every 4-6 weeks.)

I galloped racehorses for 3 winters here in FL, for a trainer who ran at Presque Isle in summer. Most of her horses were 5yo and up. Lots of 7, 8yos. Two were 10yo. Out of 20 horses each season, I would consider about 4 of them “decent” in claiming/starter company. The rest were mostly just there to show up and get a $600 check, and on a lucky day get in the money. But running 10 horses a week, earning $500 each minimum, that’s enough to keep her stable afloat (with her style of management).

She is not the only trainer who plays the game this way, with older starters that you could argue should be retired before their ankles look like softballs. If it becomes more difficult (expensive, due to less supply) to acquire new young horses, those older creaky campaigners will keep on running until there is no useful post-racing career remaining. It already happens now, and I don’t see a 5000 size foal crop improving that issue.

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I still don’t see how any of that justifies the excess number of TBs bred per year. I’m glad less foals are born now than 20 years ago and it I really hope that continues.

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I can’t speak to the number of horses being bred but I can speak to looking at quite literally thousands of TB ads over the last 10-ish years. In my uneducated, ammy opinion the breeding for race horses has turned to having an eye for future sport horse prospects. Most horses are level to up hill, the backs are shorter and the pasterns are not quite as upright and long as a decade ago. Even horses out of smaller, backwater tracks are generally pretty darn nice. You will still find horses with a less sporty confirmation, however you may find those in any breed.

I think it’s pretty telling that most sport breed registries allow TB cross breeds to be registered. And/or TB to be approved as breeding stock. Yes, it could be because there are so darn many of them or it could be because the horses are bred to be sporty and overall sound. KS is definitely a consern. So is the numerous genetic diseases in QH and QH offshoot breds or the dropping pastern (sorry I know it is DSL-something or other) disease of many WB for example.

All of my TB’s have been called other breeds by casual observers. WB’s for the first two and QH (until he trots off) for the current one.

I recent had a conversation with a lady and her husband who trailered in to at my barn. They came over to chat right after I got on and when I told them the horse I was sitting on was a 6 yo OTTB she couldn’t believe it. In her opinion all OTTBs were wild and uncontrollable. My guy slowly dozing off clearly didn’t fit that mold. Well than clearly he was a dead head and wouldn’t be a good eventer. Nope. This horse is learning to be a cross country machine and can put on the after burners. The point of this story is people perceive TBs as a cheap, “lower quality”, and bred to only run breed. Most people reading this thread know that’s wrong. But we aren’t the target market of that article.

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The number I saw was between 100,000 to 80,000 (2018) horses go to slaughter with about 7500 being thoroughbreds,.too many for sure but not 20 percent.
https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-care-category/just-how-many-horses-leave-the-u-s-bound-for-slaughter/

https://hsvma.memberclicks.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1135:horses-go-from-racetracks-to-slaughter&catid=29:reading&Itemid=119

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That 7500 number is an estimation… not data and the person doing the estimating is also the president of the national thoroughbred racing association.

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Back when @gumtree was around, he made a point that really stuck with me: water seeks water.

The number of TBs being bred each year is dictated by the demand.

In 2019, over 36,000 races were run, with an average of 7.5 horses per race and an average of 6 starts a year for every runner.

That’s why there are so many TBs out there.

If you breed less horses, you are still going to have roughly the same percentage of “culls” who never make it to the track for horsey reasons like injuries and illness. Tightening breeding practices might slightly reduce those culls, but breeding TBs is expensive. If a horse can run, it usually does (with a few exceptions, like extraordinarily valuable fillies who would only be successful at claiming conditions lower than the value of their pedigree).

If you breed less horses just for the sake of breeding less horses, many race tracks will be forced to close because they will not be able to fill their races at a level to interest bettors. If those tracks close, breeding will further be reduced.

Eventually, you are only going to be left with the elite breeders and elite race horses. Which may sound good in theory, but it comes with its own complications for the future of the OTTB.

The biggest problem I foresee is the loss of genetic diversity: just look at places like Australia, which has a much smaller TB industry than our own. It is the norm to see modern AUS racehorses with four or more crosses to Northern Dancer through his son Danehill, because people will breed to what is successful and what is winning races at the top levels. What is winning races often is drastically different than what sporthorse people seek.

“Cheap” state breeding programs in the US have often been the source of what many would consider “over breeding,” yet these state breeding programs have also preserved a lot of durable (yet slower) horses with sport-friendly bloodlines. These bloodlines persist at the state level and occasionally get reintroduced into the top levels of the sport when an exceptional individual crops up (Tiznow would be a good example).

It’s a complex problem without an easy solution. The most important thing to remember is that racing is a multi-billion dollar industry; show horses pale in comparison to how much revenue racing generates. It’s easy to say racing should do XYZ because that is what works for sport horses, but there are massive economic forces driving racing decisions. I’m not saying that to excuse racing from responsibility to their animals, just to point out that people aren’t just doing this as a hobby. We have access to relatively cheap OTTBs that can still reach the highest levels of sport because of the current racing industry. That would not be true if we simply bred less horses.

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Yes but they’re only in demand for the first 5 Or 6 years of their life. I’m sorry I just don’t agree that it’s ethical to breed that many horses per year when there’s not enough jobs for them post track career. And if they really need that many horses to fill tracks and fill races than perhaps there should be less tracks and less races. I know that sounds radical and I’m probably about to get mocked on here for being a tree hugger but I just don’t see how its ok for one industry to dump that many unwanted horses into the market when knowing the post racing career market can’t keep up. Horses don’t need to go to slaughter for an industry to survive especially when that industry makes more money than every other horse related industry combined.

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It sounds like you disagree with the entire industry. Of course you can feel that way, and without anyone calling you pejoratives.

But just remember, that also means no more TB.

I will ask what is your actual firsthand experience with the racing industry? Because it sounds like your perspective is limited to aftercare/slaughter. The latter of which has been steadily decreasing in the thoroughbred industry.

Also, do you have a statistic on this:

The US horse industry in total has been estimated to generate $102B to the economy. (source)

Seeing how there is no US slaughter of horses, I don’t see how that could make more money for our economy than every other horse related industry combined. I don’t know what the countries we export horses to for slaughter make off of our product, but I find it hard to believe it exceeds $102B. But I’d love to see that statistic to correct my thinking!

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Not only this, but (with the preface that I am not nearly nearly as informed about the TB industry as @Texarkana and other posters), I suspect that we show/pleasure horse owners benefit tremendously from its demand for and funding of veterinary research/education, vet hospitals themselves, nutrition research, horseshoeing supplies, tack, general horse care products, etc. Right?

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