Opinions & Advice Wanted - Raw for Large Breed Puppy (slight rant too)

[Hollycatt]

I am getting a Rottweiler puppy in about 7 weeks so am researching food as I want to do my best for her. I am in the UK. I know there will hopefully be people here who can point me in the right direction of brands, reading etc I could not understand why many vets were so against raw. Now I can!

Today I went to two shops: one only selling raw & offering ‘expert’ advice, the other a pet supermarket with about 6 large freezers of raw. Well the specialist shop had no puppy food in stock, and the preprepared brand they usually stock had high calcium and more phosphorus than calcium so the calcium phosphorus ratio was totally wrong. It was marketed for all puppies and when I queried the differing needs of large breed puppies, particularly given the high calcium in the product (I doubt it was a nutrient dense food, on dry matter basis fat was about 12%, protein 25% so no adjustments needed for nutrient dense, though energy values not given), the ‘expert’ didn’t understand why it would be an issue. If they don’t understand such basics, I would not trust them to come up with a diet plan for prepare your own raw. Second shop, only one brand perpetrated raw, again for all puppies irrespective of breed, again not suitable for large breeds when Ca % looked at, again assistant had no clue but insisted it would be fine as label said ok for all puppies.

I have emailed a few companies as not enough nutritional info on website. Only one replied. Reply was very good, very detailed and helpful even after queries from me. I think food will suit (they have working breed puppy raw)

My circumstances are that the pup will be trained as my autism assistance dog. Due to my autism, I don’t ‘do’ food prep in any way,shape or form. This is why I am looking for a prepared raw. Once pup is qualified, she will travel with me on business, mainly Japan & US. She will be 1 year plus by that time so am confident hotel can arrange some raw food to be delivered before I arrive, particularly in US. I would worry about preparing my own raw in a hotel room. A few days occasionally with a less than optimal diet at that age will be fine, as long as mot unfamiliar foods upsetting her stomach.

My questions:
1.Are there any good brands of prepared raw you could recommend for a large breed puppy
2. Any good books or websites that would have info for large breed puppy raw
3 would it be easy enough to prepare raw myself? I studied vet med so understand basic nutrition (not as much as raw advocates) so it’s the practical prep due to my autism I worry about if lots of weighing & calculations, particularly when in a hotel.
4 is it all too complicated and I should opt for royal canin/hills large breed puppy food.

opinions very gratefully received! thanks in advance

[Marshfield]

I couldn’t find the calcium to phosphorous information, but I use Stella and Chewy’s frozen raw patties with one of mine. Brand availability in Europe may be very different than what we have here.

I would suggest contacting your closest kennel club. They likely have some raw feeding members who might be able to point you to some smaller local sources.

[Hollycatt]

Thanks for your reply I know the correct ratios, max Ca with respect to different energy content as often raw is much more nutrient dense than dry puppy food, so what looks like high Ca in raw with higher fat & protein is fine when the nutrient density is taken into account.

That is a good idea 're kennel club. I have applied to join a few UK raw groups on FB. I know there are very knowledgeable people here, and just want as much info as I can really Breeder does not feed raw but she supports it.

[shayaalliard]

For travel/in a pinch, you may be able to pack and rehydrate freeze dried raw- not much help for day to day food, but I am quite fond of vital essentials freeze dried raw for my cat- I also use them as training treats for the dogs.

[Hollycatt]

Thanks shayallard I am also .interested in freeze dried raw training treats. I believe in keeping large breed puppies on the slim side, so need to factor in training treats to her daily allowance, though prefer to be hands on and adjust accordingly

[Bicoastal]

For international travel, I would forego raw and use dehydrated or other shelf-stable food. My experience with hotel mini-fridges is they either freeze everything solid or can’t even keep ice from melting. There would be too many logistics to time perfectly to feed raw from hotels when traveling abroad. A healthy adult dog will survive a gradual yet temporary diet switch.

About the whole Service Dog Thing, here’s my unasked for two cents. Feel free to ignore since this isn’t what you are asking.

To be honest, I don’t “get” service dogs for autism. The original intent of an SD in the United States is for medical conditions which can be mitigated by a dog’s ability to perform physical tasks. I definitely get the benefit of ESAs for autism and other mental conditions. As more and more people are egregiously taking advantage of America’s minimal regulation, I’ve become a skeptic. I’m afraid SDs for autism is on the slippery side of the slope we have in the US of slapping a vest on a dog for all sorts of less than legitimate conditions (or no condition at all!)

Regardless of my unasked for opinion, there are a lot of hurdles to overcome before you need to worry about a globe-trotting service dog’s menu before the puppy has even arrived. I don’t know about other countries’ service animal legislation: my impression was most are more arduous than the States’ minimalist approach. I expect ours may change soon thanks to the fakers and scammers.

Rotts are banned outright in Spain, France, and Italy, and other countries, plus banned from housing in Japan. It’s certainly an unusual choice for a dog intended to be a public access service animal who can travel internationally (I assume that also means fly in-cabin). I just recently flew. Even as a dog lover, I would not enjoy a very large dog infringing on my foot space for the length of an international flight. Yes, they are supposed to tuck into their handler’s, and only their handler’s, foot space. I don’t see how that’s possible for a Rottweiler.

If your puppy grows up into an extraordinarily stable animal with exceptional training who meets the service animal criteria of your country, visiting countries, and associated air travel regulation, then you can worry about what to feed her. For now, enjoy the anticipation of your future friend!

[Hollycatt]

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions Bicostal.

You are right, my country has far more extensive and strict requirements for service dogs than the US, and yet for my medical conditions -which I am not going to expand upon here but greatly exceed autism - it is appropriate. In fact it was my therapist, backed up by my Dr who thought an assistance dog would be a good thing for me. I was not convinced for a while, but on many levels would be beneficial. I take it you are aware many autistic people have epilepsy? Assistance dogs for autistic individuals can save lives. So that autism support dog you may snear at is in many cases trained as a seizure alert dog. Maybe autistic people should just be allowed to die, while their cohorts with ‘just’ epilepsy, or just deaf, or just blind deserve their dogs?

It was actually US people experienced in assistance dogs that thought a rottie would suit. I love the breed so it seemed a good choice. I take it you don’t know much about rotties, or at least sound, good natured ones - lots of fakes and badly bred, badly trained one’s in the US.

I did write my veterinary thesis on breed specific legislation, comparing various European jurisdictions, so I am aware that not all countries like Rottweilers. However, dogs that are registered assistance dogs have certain rights under disability legislation, both within Europe and internationally. As a 20 year qualified lawyer I am capable of researching any countries I may have to travel to, but as this is over a year away there is little point as the law is never static. If Japan is not rottie friendly then my business partner will do that territory and I will do US.

I have always found travelling 1st or business class (depending on airline) that seats are spacious and sometimes individual so not sure why there would not be room? Some airlines give an assistance dog a free seat so even the odd airline which is more cramped would have more than enough room.In any event many of my clients have private jets so I don’t intend slumming it if I don’t have to

I also don’t think you are staying in the right hotels if you are having fridge problems. Most 5 star hotels would happily prepare anything I asked in the kitchen anyway.

[sisu27]

I am far less concerned about the calcium with raw as opposed to kibble. It is processed differently (by the dog and not processed at all if you know what I mean) I have a 7 month old Dobe that has been on raw since we brought him home. No knuckling. He is fine. He has had anything from entire raw chickens to prepared raw blends. If the CA is very high I would wonder how much actual meat is in the food (is it all bone and fat?). That would concern me much more.

Were I you I would choose a raw food that is from a safe source, as clean as possible and just feed it. Variety is important with raw feeding IMO…I use a huge array of proteins as my base and add blended fruit and veg, coconut oil, smelts, brewers yeast, kelp, eggs etc etc My dogs look incredible.

[callmegold]

If its of any help, I’ve found there are several great facebook groups dedicated to raw feeding. Since there is little formal research/ knowledge on the diet I’ve found the best way to get information is from experienced people. Plenty of non-US people there as well, surely someone can help you with a reliable source no matter the location.

[CuriosoJorge]

Do you need to be able to lunge at Devon, too?

[Simkie]

@Hollycatt

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions Bicostal.

You are right, my country has far more extensive and strict requirements for service dogs than the US, and yet for my medical conditions -which I am not going to expand upon here but greatly exceed autism - it is appropriate. In fact it was my therapist, backed up by my Dr who thought an assistance dog would be a good thing for me. I was not convinced for a while, but on many levels would be beneficial. I take it you are aware many autistic people have epilepsy? Assistance dogs for autistic individuals can save lives. So that autism support dog you may snear at is in many cases trained as a seizure alert dog. Maybe autistic people should just be allowed to die, while their cohorts with ‘just’ epilepsy, or just deaf, or just blind deserve their dogs?

It was actually US people experienced in assistance dogs that thought a rottie would suit. I love the breed so it seemed a good choice. I take it you don’t know much about rotties, or at least sound, good natured ones - lots of fakes and badly bred, badly trained one’s in the US.

I did write my veterinary thesis on breed specific legislation, comparing various European jurisdictions, so I am aware that not all countries like Rottweilers. However, dogs that are registered assistance dogs have certain rights under disability legislation, both within Europe and internationally. As a 20 year qualified lawyer I am capable of researching any countries I may have to travel to, but as this is over a year away there is little point as the law is never static. If Japan is not rottie friendly then my business partner will do that territory and I will do US.

I have always found travelling 1st or business class (depending on airline) that seats are spacious and sometimes individual so not sure why there would not be room? Some airlines give an assistance dog a free seat so even the odd airline which is more cramped would have more than enough room.In any event many of my clients have private jets so I don’t intend slumming it if I don’t have to

I also don’t think you are staying in the right hotels if you are having fridge problems. Most 5 star hotels would happily prepare anything I asked in the kitchen anyway.

Wow. You take concerns about selecting a support dog that is subject to breed specific legislation across the world to “maybe autistic people should just be allowed to die?” :eek:

eta: it appears some airlines may also limit the ability of a Rottweiler to travel in the cabin. Air France looks to only allow them as cargo, for example.

[Kemosabe]

One of the fundamentals of feeding raw is balance over time. Dog food kibble companies have done an excellent job marketing the concept of “a balanced diet in a bag”.

Remember the calcium and phosphorus that is added to kibble is in an inorganic form: carbonates and oxides. Its interesting that the cal/phos ratio in commercial puppy kibble that has caused so many problems in large breed puppies doesn’t appear to happen in wolf pups who gnaw on raw bones of the kill.

I feed five australian shepherds raw and although they are not as large as a Rottie, they are extremely healthy, look great , don’t have skin issues, immune system issues, allergies, food intolerances, picky eater syndrome or osteo arthritis.

If the OP is that concerned with the cal/phos ratio, add some cooked rice or oatmeal twice a week to the raw.

[DQ_Foxhunter]

@Hollycatt

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions Bicostal.

You are right, my country has far more extensive and strict requirements for service dogs than the US, and yet for my medical conditions -which I am not going to expand upon here but greatly exceed autism - it is appropriate. In fact it was my therapist, backed up by my Dr who thought an assistance dog would be a good thing for me. I was not convinced for a while, but on many levels would be beneficial. I take it you are aware many autistic people have epilepsy? Assistance dogs for autistic individuals can save lives. So that autism support dog you may snear at is in many cases trained as a seizure alert dog. Maybe autistic people should just be allowed to die, while their cohorts with ‘just’ epilepsy, or just deaf, or just blind deserve their dogs?

It was actually US people experienced in assistance dogs that thought a rottie would suit. I love the breed so it seemed a good choice. I take it you don’t know much about rotties, or at least sound, good natured ones - lots of fakes and badly bred, badly trained one’s in the US.

I did write my veterinary thesis on breed specific legislation, comparing various European jurisdictions, so I am aware that not all countries like Rottweilers. However, dogs that are registered assistance dogs have certain rights under disability legislation, both within Europe and internationally. As a 20 year qualified lawyer I am capable of researching any countries I may have to travel to, but as this is over a year away there is little point as the law is never static. If Japan is not rottie friendly then my business partner will do that territory and I will do US.

I have always found travelling 1st or business class (depending on airline) that seats are spacious and sometimes individual so not sure why there would not be room? Some airlines give an assistance dog a free seat so even the odd airline which is more cramped would have more than enough room.In any event many of my clients have private jets so I don’t intend slumming it if I don’t have to

I also don’t think you are staying in the right hotels if you are having fridge problems. Most 5 star hotels would happily prepare anything I asked in the kitchen anyway.

I fly first class a lot, and I can’t even imagine, having a large dog tucked under a seat, not really fair to the dog or the person sitting next to you.
I know you did not ask for this kind of advice, but if you really want to travel with your dog a smaller dog might be a better choice.