Opinions appendix mare x WB?

[RodeoQueen]

I’m looking for thoughts on possibly crossing my appendix mare to WB for dressage. Would the foal be eligible for any kind of registry?

I know it’s a little out there but she’s a really nice , big, pretty correct mare. She’s 16.1 dark bay with a nice set of haunches and good disposition. I feel like with the right WB x I’d end up w/ a big pretty athletic horse with a very easy going disposition. I’m not interested in breed circuits and have fallen in love with dressage. However, I already have a nice Dutch gelding so likely that this baby would be for sale.

My flame suit is zipped up - please tell me your thoughts and any ideas about possible stallions would be great

[Scaramouch]

Why?

You probably could have your mare approved in the lower books of RPSI or ISR and a foal by an approved stallion would be eligible for registration.

That said, you’re severely limiting your buyer pool, at least until the horse is under saddle and competing. Very few people will buy a dressage prospect with stock horse lineage, and of course a WBx would be of no interest to those showing AQHA.

If you were breeding for a personal horse, then by all means go for it, but for resale it makes no sense. If you just want to breed your mare to sell the foal, then breed to another QH or Appendix (or TB if your mare has earned full QH papers) so that the foal will be eligible for AQHA registration and sell to that market.

Just my opinion.

[ToTheNines]

Agree, why breed at all? And why breed for a horse that is going to be difficult to sell? Even if it turns out to be a great horse, you are going to have to put in the money to train it and prove it, and by that time, you have a lot of investment put into it. If you want a dressage horse, go shop for what you want from breeders that know what they are doing.

I have bought quite a few young horses, and I look for horses that are purpose bred.

[Megaladon]

Unless you are doing it for yourself, I would pass. The mob is fickle, one minute this is hot the next something else, so marketing and having a definite sale is a gamble. The expense is also something to consider. If things don’t go as planned, money can really add up. If you would be happy being “stuck” with the foal for the rest of it’s life, then go for it.

[whbar158]

If the mare really is that nice I do not have a huge problem with it. Every day horses that are registered are bred that are not nice but hey they can get papers. I think pedigrees are interesting and if you are looking at high end upper level horses I think it can make a difference in stacking the odds in your favor of having talent, but for many people out there they care about what the horse can actually do. Sure one with nice bloodlines will probably be able to be sold for more if it also does its job well, but having worked with several well bred horses that weren’t that talented it makes performance that much more important to me.

So if the mare is talented and well put together I would have no problem seeing her bred to a well matched stallion.

[rosebudranch]

There are NICE TB sport stallions out there… taht you could get registered appendix I believe, and agree with everyone above, if you want to sell… don’t do it. If it is for personal reasons and you TRULY believe your mare will produce a nice quality foal, then sure get her approved by RPSI, but then again, if it is for personal reasons, why the worry about registration?

[fire_911medic]

[QUOTE=rosebudranch;7299669]
There are NICE TB sport stallions out there… taht you could get registered appendix I believe, and agree with everyone above, if you want to sell… don’t do it. If it is for personal reasons and you TRULY believe your mare will produce a nice quality foal, then sure get her approved by RPSI, but then again, if it is for personal reasons, why the worry about registration?[/QUOTE]

She could not register with AQHA if she breeds TB. An appendix must go back to a QH in order to be AQHA registered. There is the option of the American Appendix Horse Association if she does go TB and with them, it doesn’t matter amount of TB. The only exception to this is if the mare has ROM (register of merit) and full QH white papers. Which with them now recognizing dresssage may be possible. I’m not sure as they just started recognizing in 2004 after my good mare was retired.

There are a couple options for you. Oldenburg NA would allow the foal in the Pre Mare Book (ISR) with the understanding she could not be upgraded and the foal would only be eligible for ISR registry. Also, RSPI you could be recorded, but that is all. Your best bet if you chose to go the warmblood route would be the AWS (american warmblood society) to obtain papers as they don’t restrict what the breed may be. Registration is either done by performance or inspection scores.

I think the best way to go (speaking from experience of owning an appendix stud and focusing towards dressage), stay with the TB market or very nice quarter horse stud so you have a cleaner line and you don’t end up with a grade type designation. I register foals with AWS, PHR, and american appendix. They are growing and really offering a good incentive to develop nice appendix horses for sport.

Understanding your market is important. Realize this foal will likely not sell the same price as a wb foal. It will likely have a lower price tag depending on when you choose to sell. If it has had the chance to prove itself, or the mare is extremely nice, then you may do very well. The foal will likely do well in an amateur market. I breed to produce the best horse possible and show they can be competitive. I have had no trouble selling my foals and have done quite well.

Best of luck to you !

[NoDQhere]

These crosses almost always have to be under saddle before they are very marketable. But once under saddle they, if nice they sell fairly easily.

[stoicfish]

Was looking at ads and a WB auction. For an example, nice stallion that has a stud fee is $1800. Cross to a Appendix Qh, $4k foal and was on the market for a while. The full WB foals out of the stallion were 7k plus. Same with auction, nice Riverman offspring that was a cross and they had a hard time with the sale. But a full Wb or even a Tb cross would have done much better.
You pay the stud fee and costs but don’t tend to get the money back. Even full WB have a hard time paying for themselves and bloodlines are the key to the decent prices now.
Good luck.

[Go_Fish]

It’s difficult to comment without knowing the pedigree on the mare.

[netg]

I would say definitely not for a foal to sell.

For yourself, if the mare is as nice as you say, I would research and see how representative she is of the previous several generations, and find a WB stallion who is a fairly similar type with the advantage of the suspension and thrust which can come with a WB.

One of my friends just bought a 6 year old WB/QH cross and I saw her riding in her second show. This mare got the best of both breeds - and absolutely kicked butt in her first level classes. Really lovely horse who, despite the later start at competing and dressage takes everything in stride with very, very nice movement and a good future.

I have seen some pretty awful QH/WB crosses, too, so it can be risky especially if your mare’s type isn’t established for several generations. You can end up with muscle bound, short-strided and inflexible like some QH types, but spooky and problematic types.

[RiverOaksFarm]

Another caution nobody has mentioned yet – while your mare may be phenotypically nice and sporty, she’s still genetically half Quarter Horse, and that could be the genetics which decide to express themselves in your foal, which could make it very hard to sell. Quarter Horse people won’t want a 1/2 Warmblood foal, and Warmblood people won’t want to pay Warmblood prices for a foal which looks like a Quarter Horse.

I had a client who bred a 25% Quarter Horse mare to a Warmblood stallion. The resulting foal looked predominantly Quarter Horse, in spite of the fact it was only 1/8th Quarter Horse and had an otherwise nice pedigree. She was the posterchild for genetic “throwbacks”. She was impossible to market/sell, there was just no niche for her. The owner eventually gave her away as a 4YO.

[mareslave]

Another genetics consideration is tendencies for tying up and navicular syndrome- years ago I looked at 2 geldings by the same dutch sire who was licensed BWP too. At that time the gelding from the appendix mare was in the auxillary book (foal book B) and the gelding from the warmblood dam was in the main foal book (book A). I passed on the B gelding as he looked like a prime navicular syndrome, the A gelding sold before I could get a PPE.

Not all quarterhorses tie up or navicular syndrome, nor do all dutch horses have navicular syndrome - that would be a hasty generalization. Certain bloodlines in each do have propensity toward navicular syndrome. If two bloodlines both have a higher tendency to display these defects, be wary of combining the 2 for a foal. You know more about what plagues modern quarterhorses than I do (Hypp?), so think of those propensities when breeding.

In looking at sales horses in the flesh, I have not seen a sales horse by any of my favorite sires from an appendix dam that I would buy and as I recall it was the feet that queered the deal each time. (one mare by a SF supersire from an appendix tied up all the time, which impeded her two star career).

It’s hardly rigorous science, just my impressions and it applies to a lot of other scenarios, for example, draft crosses must be wary of shivers, tying up, etc - still fancy a nice draft cross.

[JWB]

Look at Irish stallions. You could register the foal as an Irish Sport Horse, or consider breeding a half Arabian.

Personally if I REALLY wanted to breed this mare though, I’d look for a superior TB. The foal couldn’t be registered through AQHA but you could at least get papers through PHR, AWS or some other pedigree tracking registry. I’ve seen some QH crosses from nice WBs that were complete throw backs (downhill, little feet) and others that you never would have known were out of QH stock, but why risk it?

[JazzIT]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;7301606]
Another caution nobody has mentioned yet – while your mare may be phenotypically nice and sporty, she’s still genetically half Quarter Horse, and that could be the genetics which decide to express themselves in your foal, which could make it very hard to sell. Quarter Horse people won’t want a 1/2 Warmblood foal, and Warmblood people won’t want to pay Warmblood prices for a foal which looks like a Quarter Horse.

I had a client who bred a 25% Quarter Horse mare to a Warmblood stallion. The resulting foal looked predominantly Quarter Horse, in spite of the fact it was only 1/8th Quarter Horse and had an otherwise nice pedigree. She was the posterchild for genetic “throwbacks”. She was impossible to market/sell, there was just no niche for her. The owner eventually gave her away as a 4YO.[/QUOTE]

^^THIS

I know someone who bred her really nice looking belgian x QH mare. Absolutely stunning, look like a PRE. She bred her to a really nice looking PRE. The resulting filly (now fully grown) looks sooo much like a belgian but with small legs, really stocky, charming face but really not build for sport, even if both parents were really athletics (dad’s performing at GP)

[JazzIT]

[QUOTE=RiverOaksFarm;7301606]
Another caution nobody has mentioned yet – while your mare may be phenotypically nice and sporty, she’s still genetically half Quarter Horse, and that could be the genetics which decide to express themselves in your foal, which could make it very hard to sell. Quarter Horse people won’t want a 1/2 Warmblood foal, and Warmblood people won’t want to pay Warmblood prices for a foal which looks like a Quarter Horse.

I had a client who bred a 25% Quarter Horse mare to a Warmblood stallion. The resulting foal looked predominantly Quarter Horse, in spite of the fact it was only 1/8th Quarter Horse and had an otherwise nice pedigree. She was the posterchild for genetic “throwbacks”. She was impossible to market/sell, there was just no niche for her. The owner eventually gave her away as a 4YO.[/QUOTE]

^^THIS

I know someone who bred her really nice looking belgian x QH mare. Absolutely stunning, look like a PRE. She bred her to a really nice looking PRE. The resulting filly (now fully grown) looks sooo much like a belgian but with small legs, really stocky, charming face but really not build for sport, even if both parents were really athletics (dad’s performing at GP)

[JazzIT]

And I know there is no belgian in your cross, but just to say that you can strongly get the QH, even though your mare looks more like a sport TB

[arlosmine]

Not a cross I’ve seen work well. It seems like it would in theory, for the reasons you mentioned…but I have seen and ridden several and I wouldn’t chance it. I’ve seen big, heavy muscled horses with bulky short-twitch type muscles in teeny feet who sulled up and then bucked like demons. Not good.

T.B. X AQHA is a time proven nick and I’d go that route.

[time_fault]

It depends on her bloodlines. If she has enough blood she can get MMB with Oldenburg N.A., full brand on the foal, buyers will be none the wiser if they don’t care to research pedigree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding a sensible QH brain to the mix. We have a FB group for AQHA, APHA, & ApHC horses in Dressage. Do not listen to the nay-sayers. There are PROVEN Appendix QH stallions and bloodlines that are successful crossovers with USEF HOTY awards and AA shows. It is a small circle, but if your mare comes from those lines, let your freak flag fly honey! I did with mine!

[DARQHORSE]

I purchased a super nice baby that was by a superb WB stallion and out of a QH/TB mare. He ended up being a super 1.20m jumper and has had a successful show career to date. He won’t end up showing much higher than 1.20m, but up to that point he is very good. I bought him at 3 days old and sold him at 2.5 years, but I will say it was INCREDIBLY difficult to sell him, inspite of his good conformation, movement, temperament and he was black with 4 stocks and a star so I even had colour in my favour. I ended up getting less than his dad’s $2500 stud fee. So while the horses may be worth money as adults with show miles and training, even if they are GOOD horses they are hard to sell. Mine had full WB papers as his mum was approved, but people saw the QH on the pedigree and immediately lost interest. If you want to breed your mare I’d head in the pure TB direction, and I would go with one that was absolutely superb with a proven production record in dressage.