Unlimited access >

Opinions on my mare's conformation/pedigree for eventing?

This is Dont Skip the Cafe, a 2007 mare by Skip to the Stone and out of Cafe’ Latte (by Kipper Kelly). I bought her in September of 2014 after knowing her as a racehorse for about a year. I’m wondering if anyone has ever worked with the Kipper Kelly or Skip Trial bloodlines before, and how they’ve done with various sports. I would love to event with this girl, but it really depends on how she takes to it.

Side conformation shot. Taken back in July, right after a race (excuse the fact that she’s turning her head away from the camera and making her neck look short):

Trot action, first time in the round pen in September:

Pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/dont+skip+the+cafe

What are your goals with her, if she takes to the sport? Are you thinking upper level stuff, or jumping around BN, or somewhere in between? She has a lot of positive qualities to her build that will set you up nicely for any discipline, and a few challenges (as all horses do), but the impact of the challenges will differ based on your trajectory. She has a phenomenal hindquarters so that’s always a step in the right direction.

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;8009725]
What are your goals with her, if she takes to the sport? Are you thinking upper level stuff, or jumping around BN, or somewhere in between? She has a lot of positive qualities to her build that will set you up nicely for any discipline, and a few challenges (as all horses do), but the impact of the challenges will differ based on your trajectory. She has a phenomenal hindquarters so that’s always a step in the right direction.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure, honestly. It depends on my limits as well as hers. I’d like to go as far as it’s feasible for us to go. So, somewhere in between, probably. She’s already proven herself to be very athletic, and has a heck of a jump in her, but we’re working on “don’t chase the other ponies” at the moment. She also has a bit of wear and tear from 5 years and 39 starts on the track, so I want to make sure I’m not asking her to do things beyond what’s safe.

What would you think would be her strengths and challenges?

She is very cute. My guy is by Crusader Sword, who is by Damascus, and he is a really super jumper. He is a good guy, great personality, brave but still careful, and an excellent jumper. It is definitely a line I would look for again.

She’s got a lot more strengths than weaknesses. As mentioned, her hindquarters is superb. Look how low her stifle is – well below the line of the sheath (if she had one!)- this connotes lots of power for jumping and galloping. She has an almost perfect equilateral triangle between stifle, pt of hip, and pt of buttock, which is desirable as a “coil” that produces the most power over fences. Her hocks are low set, which aids in soundness,and though she’s a tad straight behind (straightness will give her more reach in stride but compromise soundness as it reduces shock absorbtion), it’s not so much that I would have much of any concern.The only point of caution is that she is a bit long through the loin– last rib to pt of hip – which is a weakness and determines how much of that great butt she can use. It’s not so much that I would be concerned, but rather that you want to set her up for success. You will always want to focus on strengthening her back and abdomen to make the most of that hind end. That means hills, cavaletti, and above all correct dressage. Think lots and lots of long and low.Whoever was racing her did a good job of prepping her – note the muscle through her loin. You can tell though that her abs are not strong as she looks a little wasp wasited (gut tucked up) which is a symptom of that loin. It appears her LS joint is correctly placed over pt of hip, but you’ll want to palpate for the “dip” of her spine to locate it for sure. This is a saving grace for your goals,as it means she will have the athleticism to really use what she’s got and diminishes the loin weakness.

I have to talk about her back and shoulder together because it’s all interconnected. The back itself(think spine length) is actually, as mentioned, on the long side(hence the long loin). However, her shoulder is HUGE (great!) and has quite a slope to it. Look how far back her withers go. This gives her the appearance of a shorter-backed horse. Watch for saddle fit –the temptation will be to put it too far forward, but you need to give that huge scapula plenty of room. She might be a difficult fit to place correctly, and she is a great candidate for a contour girth that will keep the saddle sitting well.

Now the slope of her shoulder and its length will give her a lot of stride in front, but it’s not in a vacuum – we have to look at it with the humerus connection. I think if she were square, the angle between scapula and humerus would be just under 90 degrees. We would like it a little more open,so this will limit the stride somewhat because she can’t make full use of that scapula length. However, the humerus length is plenty to be an asset, and the point of shoulder is high enough to maximize what she’s got. Any shorter or and she would have been much shorter in front. Now, let me jump back to the scapula and what it means practically. The sloping angle that will give her a "gliding"trot does not leave a ton of room to rotate back. This means that in order to clear fences, instead of rocking back through the shoulder,she’ll have to pop her knees up like a hunter to get them out of the way over bigger fences. Now, since she should be pretty scopey with that hind end, she may just find it easier to power over things rather than work through the knees and shoulder, so if you do move up the levels, know that her jumping technique will have to be refined as the fences get higher so she knows how to use her body. It could scare her if things get high too quickly because she might find herself in trouble if the scope runs out and she hits things with her knees.

Lastly, she is build a touch downhill.I can see she’s also standing in a little dip in front on the mat there, but her whole demeanor is a little front heavy. It’s not bad at all, and certainly not enough to hold you back from your goals,but requires attention to how you ride and train her. I would prefer if her neck came out at a little higher on top to help you so that it was more natural for her to rock backwards on her hocks. You can tell in the trot picture that when she lifts her neck, there is some incorrect muscling underneath. The temptation with this kind of horse will be to "lift"her up through the bridle to keep her off the forehand. With that neck and downhill propensity, you will just create a false frame and a lot of pain through the withers if you do this, because the lower neck muscles are much stronger in her build. Think BTV and overbent. Moreover, because of her weaker loin, she will find it difficult to make work of her abs which would help support her rocking back, so the cavaletti and hills become extra important. Instead of lifting her or putting her head anywhere, focus on developing this horse’s hind end to support the front. The stronger she gets behind, the lighter she’ll be in front.

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;8010699]
She’s got a lot more strengths than weaknesses. As mentioned, her hindquarters is superb. Look how low her stifle is – well below the line of the sheath (if she had one!)- this connotes lots of power for jumping and galloping. She has an almost perfect equilateral triangle between stifle, pt of hip, and pt of buttock, which is desirable as a “coil” that produces the most power over fences. Her hocks are low set, which aids in soundness,and though she’s a tad straight behind (straightness will give her more reach in stride but compromise soundness as it reduces shock absorbtion), it’s not so much that I would have much of any concern.The only point of caution is that she is a bit long through the loin– last rib to pt of hip – which is a weakness and determines how much of that great butt she can use. It’s not so much that I would be concerned, but rather that you want to set her up for success. You will always want to focus on strengthening her back and abdomen to make the most of that hind end. That means hills, cavaletti, and above all correct dressage. Think lots and lots of long and low.Whoever was racing her did a good job of prepping her – note the muscle through her loin. You can tell though that her abs are not strong as she looks a little wasp wasited (gut tucked up) which is a symptom of that loin. It appears her LS joint is correctly placed over pt of hip, but you’ll want to palpate for the “dip” of her spine to locate it for sure. This is a saving grace for your goals,as it means she will have the athleticism to really use what she’s got and diminishes the loin weakness.

I have to talk about her back and shoulder together because it’s all interconnected. The back itself(think spine length) is actually, as mentioned, on the long side(hence the long loin). However, her shoulder is HUGE (great!) and has quite a slope to it. Look how far back her withers go. This gives her the appearance of a shorter-backed horse. Watch for saddle fit –the temptation will be to put it too far forward, but you need to give that huge scapula plenty of room. She might be a difficult fit to place correctly, and she is a great candidate for a contour girth that will keep the saddle sitting well.

Now the slope of her shoulder and its length will give her a lot of stride in front, but it’s not in a vacuum – we have to look at it with the humerus connection. I think if she were square, the angle between scapula and humerus would be just under 90 degrees. We would like it a little more open,so this will limit the stride somewhat because she can’t make full use of that scapula length. However, the humerus length is plenty to be an asset, and the point of shoulder is high enough to maximize what she’s got. Any shorter or and she would have been much shorter in front. Now, let me jump back to the scapula and what it means practically. The sloping angle that will give her a "gliding"trot does not leave a ton of room to rotate back. This means that in order to clear fences, instead of rocking back through the shoulder,she’ll have to pop her knees up like a hunter to get them out of the way over bigger fences. Now, since she should be pretty scopey with that hind end, she may just find it easier to power over things rather than work through the knees and shoulder, so if you do move up the levels, know that her jumping technique will have to be refined as the fences get higher so she knows how to use her body. It could scare her if things get high too quickly because she might find herself in trouble if the scope runs out and she hits things with her knees.

Lastly, she is build a touch downhill.I can see she’s also standing in a little dip in front on the mat there, but her whole demeanor is a little front heavy. It’s not bad at all, and certainly not enough to hold you back from your goals,but requires attention to how you ride and train her. I would prefer if her neck came out at a little higher on top to help you so that it was more natural for her to rock backwards on her hocks. You can tell in the trot picture that when she lifts her neck, there is some incorrect muscling underneath. The temptation with this kind of horse will be to "lift"her up through the bridle to keep her off the forehand. With that neck and downhill propensity, you will just create a false frame and a lot of pain through the withers if you do this, because the lower neck muscles are much stronger in her build. Think BTV and overbent. Moreover, because of her weaker loin, she will find it difficult to make work of her abs which would help support her rocking back, so the cavaletti and hills become extra important. Instead of lifting her or putting her head anywhere, focus on developing this horse’s hind end to support the front. The stronger she gets behind, the lighter she’ll be in front.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that’s a very detailed breakdown, thank you! I am definitely having a monster of a time finding a saddle to fit her perfectly - I’ve been told that County and Black Country models with the SR panels will probably be my best bet.

Luckily, I have wonderful resources at the facility where I board, so I’m hoping for the best!

To add to the above awesome post…
She looks like she will be tough. She looks very tight which is shown in how hollow she carries herself in the trot picture.
She already has conformation that is going to make keeping her through very difficult. (long back, down hill build, low set neck–though it doesn’t tie in low, it starts low)

keeping that long back healthy will def take some finesse.

I don’t think she has a long back, and I don’t think she is downhill – or uphill. She looks level and balanced to me.