Opinions on this filly?

[mnewton1]

Hi! I’d like to get some opinions on a filly I’m potentially going to be owning. She was born June 17, so a little over a month now. Beautiful chestnut filly, will be able to be double register quarter horse and paint. I am the breeder’s farrier and have the opportunity to have her at a pretty sweet deal.

However, there’s a couple things I’m looking to get some more opinions/education about. This filly was a product of an accidental father/daughter breeding. I’ve talked to a couple different people on this matter, including the breeder, who said that if an inbreeding happens once in a lineage it’s ok but can never ever happen again, and if the progeny is a colt it must be gelded and if it’s a mare intended for breeding the breeding must be very carefully done to prevent more inbreeding. However I’ve talked to other people and they say absolutely not, pass on it, inbreeding is horrible and I’m going to end up with issues. So, opinions on that would be helpful

My second question here, and please be gentle on this one I’ve met her once. Mom was amazing letting me be around her and handle her. I was there to do a trim and shoes on Mom, I was working alone. As soon as I went around Mom the baby just went at me, mouth open up on two legs then turned around tried double barrel kicking. No amount of yelling, waving my arms and last resort smacking her to try to get her to stop, would make her stop. She was absolutely relentless to the the point that being by myself, I was more worried about my safety, I climbed the stall door to get out. Is this something that is a result of the breeding? Or just lack of handling? Is there any tips or anything anyone can give me moving forward? I would really hate to pass on this foal because it’s just such a good opportunity for me, and I’ve ridden and worked with plenty of hot horses but I just need some good constructive opinions. I will also include links to her parents papers (scroll all the way down) . She has Zippo Pine Bar on her mothers side and some pretty nice ones on her fathers side. Thank you everyone for reading and for your opinions. Honesty is appreciated but please, be gentle This is my first baby and my first mare, I currently have 4 older geldings !

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/miss+ronika+zipnleo

https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dexter+maximillion

[JB]

1 - father/dtr breedings are, obviously, not ideal but they’re also not going to result in deformities, not any more than any normal breeding. Inbreeding does increase the risk of doubling up on undesirable traits, just as much as the potential benefit of doubling desirable ones. 100% you need a full 6 (now 7?) panel test for health diseases, as part of a purchase contingency. You don’t actually need all those tests if it’s just about health issues (HYPP, PSSM, MH, MYHM), but there are others you’d need to take into consideration if she was ever going to be bred - HERDA, GBED, LWO, and the newer one, EJSCA - which are carrier status only in the hetero form, but should never be bred to create a homozygous horse

2 - lack of handling, a filly being a filly, stranger danger, playing (potentially even really not aware you were actually there). This doesn’t mean she’s hot or spicy, just hasn’t yet learned what’s acceptable around people Do you know anything about how she’s been handled in her short life? You’d want to go spend a little more time with her, with the owner, with the filly haltered. If they’re shown the ropes early, they learn quickly how to behave with people, even if they still have baby moments.

[mnewton1]

Thank you for your reply. As far as I know she hasn’t been played with much, though I’ve been told she’s never acted that way towards anyone yet and she’s been nothing but sweet. I want to chalk it up to me being a complete stranger and being a farrier my equipment has many different smells. Probably just her being a baby, I just wanted to try to find a way to prevent that going forward. I live an hour and 40 minutes away so I can’t be there every day but I’m going to try to work going down into my schedule at least once a week if I can.

[Cowboy_Girl]

Love the sires pedigree - lots of good tough TBs coming from the sires mother line and one Three Bars (Bar Heels), one Three Bars on the father line. A good sporty mix - would event to Training and be competitive.

The mothers pedigree (obviously same as dad on the top.) But her mother line is line bred as to Zippo Pat Bars and Barduendo by Three Bars. Pretty Impressive, a ways back but still Three Bars.

This is a real 50/50 opportunity. If it works it could work really well, but if doesn’t it really won’t. With the inbreeding disposition and train-ability could be affected, as in so hyper sensitive and reactive to be dangerous. Whether that is what you experienced in your recent experience vs. no training its too early to tell.

Get the AQHA 5 panel test and see if she is clean on that area. Give it an 18 month trial. But be mentally prepared that this filly may have not won the genetic lottery and behavioral issues may develop that may her unsafe and she may have to be PTS.

[jvanrens]

Good lord look at the legs on her!! I’m not terribly concerned about her parentage personally, as long as both parents look like horses you would want to own. It’s not something I’d set out to do myself, but in the history of the QH breed (and likely many others) it’s not always uncommon.

A question for you that you may have to ask the owners to confirm, but is the mare and foal usually outside and were just in for mom to be trimmed? Some foals could be pretty sassy when they have been shut in and are used to having a lot more outdoor time. Not excusing it, just thinking of personal experience with them on farrier or vet days.

ETA: Agree on the panel testing.

[skydy]

Definitely have the panel testing done. I would also have her examined by a vet when and if she calms down.

The breeder should have experience in foal handling and will hopefully teach the filly the basics.
She can show you what to do on the occasions that you are able to visit. Will the breeder give you more time to decide? Closer to weaning time?

[mnewton1]

Awesome I’ll look into that panel testing. And we signed a contract, I’m making monthly payments but if decide before she’s paid off that I don’t want her I get my money back

[mnewton1]

Thank you for your reply! Her parents are beautiful and both so calm and even keeled, I’ve got fingers crossed that it’s just due to not being handled, the breeder says she has no issues with her but then again she sees her every day.

[bingbingbing]

@mnewton1

As soon as I went around Mom the baby just went at me, mouth open up on two legs then turned around tried double barrel kicking. No amount of yelling, waving my arms and last resort smacking her to try to get her to stop, would make her stop. She was absolutely relentless to the the point that being by myself, I was more worried about my safety, I climbed the stall door to get out.

Babies pull instinctual bluffs. I wonder if your reaction created her bigger reaction. IDK your foal experience. Or she maybe has just not been handled enough/fairly.

She is so very young. Interactions need to be fair. She knows nothing of this world but what she is being shown.

[mnewton1]

I have some foal experience, but not a whole lot. She also hasn’t been handled very much. I was also told her mother never corrects her for anything, which I saw after I hopped the stall door she turned and started kicking her mother. Mom had no reaction, just ate her hay like she wasn’t being kicked in the side

[skydy]

U.C. Davis is very well respected. https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/panel/quarter-horse-disease-panel

[bingbingbing]

This is a human fail. Not you. But her breeder’s. This is not a foal problem, it is a human one. Sadly, the foal will pay the price without fair intevention.

[mnewton1]

Do you have any suggestions on what I should do? I live an hour and a half away but I am down in that area sometimes for work, I could always stop by after and play with her but I can’t consistently go down every single day

[mnewton1]

Her parents are both lovely! The father is just so well behaved, I work on his feet by myself and I’ve never felt nervous around him he’s on the taller side and stocky but not anywhere as stocky as Mom and they certainly did make a fine looking baby. I wasn’t too concerned with the breeding at first, and I even had a lady that I trim for tell me not to worry about it too much. She breeds dachshunds and while she said that inbreeding like that is best when it’s planned, as long as the baby comes out healthy it should be ok, just to make sure that it doesn’t ever happen again. But then this morning I went to a clients house and I was telling her about the baby and she basically grabbed me and shook me and said “omg what are you thinking terrible idea don’t do it you never want to inbreed you’re going to end up with a genetic freak, she’s beautiful but her mind isn’t right you’ll get yourself killed.” So of course, it sent me rolling and that’s how I ended up here today

[mnewton1]

Thank you for the link! So this might be a stupid question and I should probably know this but this is my first foal and my old boys have never had genetic testing, but if she tests positive for any of those diseases, then what happens?

[skydy]

As a rule, you don’t buy the foal, unless you want a whole lot of vet bills.

When you get the results ask your vet, or come back here. Some recessive genes can be worked around and some positive results cannot.

[colorfan]

I really don’t think I would make a decision yet. I would try to see her again around 4 months, hopefully she has been handled some by then.
Have another look at weaning, a bit more age and handling may present a very different baby than the fireball you just experienced.

Curious, I recently just heard, maybe even read it here on Both, of an aggressive foal that appeared to be protecting mom. Could that have been the case here?

[Festivity]

I would say that if mom doesn’t discipline her she might just not realize that there are rules. My colt would be an absolute terror if his mom and the rest of the herd didn’t keep him in line. Fortunately because they do I can just give him a nasty lead mare look or a sharp verbal correction and that clues him in that he crossed a line even if he isn’t sure which one. Without mom’s help you’ll have more work to do establishing boundaries but it won’t be impossible. If you have old geldings to put her with after weaning they may help.

[JB]

@Cowboy_Girl

With the inbreeding disposition and train-ability could be affected, as in so hyper sensitive and reactive to be dangerous

Are you saying that’s a function of the father-dtr breeding, or this particular pedigree? If the former then no, there’s no reason to think that behavior will come out. If the latter, then I don’t know enough about the breeding to say one way or the other

@Cowboy_Girl

Get the AQHA 5 panel test and see if she is clean on that area.

I would do the 6, to include MYHM

@mnewton1

I was also told her mother never corrects her for anything, which I saw after I hopped the stall door she turned and started kicking her mother. Mom had no reaction, just ate her hay like she wasn’t being kicked in the side

there’s usually not a whole lot of correcting going on at this age, they’re too fragile. More, and bigger corrections come as the foal gets older and bigger and stronger

@mnewton1

if she tests positive for any of those diseases, then what happens?

Depends on which one(s). HYPP or PSSM1, MYHM, MH, don’t buy, they HAVE the disease, and you’ll have to manage her for life. You may already know the outcome of these diseases if you see the parents are negative for both. The others - HERDA and GBED - aren’t diseases in the hetero state, but you should never breed to a carrier stallion (if breeding is in her future). The 7th disease, listed above, is also carrier status, but I wouldn’t bother testing for that unless/until you decide to breed.

[pony_grandma]

@bingbingbing

This is a human fail. Not you. But her breeder’s. This is not a foal problem, it is a human one. Sadly, the foal will pay the price without fair intevention.

The breeder may feel like they don’t have a vested interest in the foal since they’ve quickly passed her on. Don’t count on them teaching her much.