I have heard that both hays don’t have that much nutritional value but do contain some nutrients that hays like alfalfa hay have. I also heard that Bermuda is meant for grazing. I’m thinking about switching from orchard to bermuda because of cost and my horses tend to get it mixed with their water.(they put mouthfuls of it in their bucket on the other side of the stall) Can anyone give some me some more insight of what both hays offer and the differences?
I know orchard tends to have more calories than Bermuda but I’m not sure how they compare in terms of the nutrient levels themselves. Right now I am feeding my horse free-choice Bermuda in addition to her alfalfa, but now that it is winter I am going to switch to orchard since she could use a few extra calories.
Bermuda IS cheaper than orchard, which is nice. However if your main concern is the mess, stick with orchard. Your horses may not be able to get the Bermuda into their water buckets, but that will be because all of it falls out of their mouths as they try to carry it over. The stuff gets EVERYwhere. In the feed room, in the aisle, all over the shavings, out in her run, on her face, in her mane and tail, on my clothes, in my hair, in my bra… there is NO escaping the Bermuda. :lol:
Have you tried hanging a smaller bucket of water near the hay for the horses that like to dunk? There are several people at my barn that give theirs a “dunking bucket.” It keeps the drinking water fresh and the horses stand in one place dunking and eating to their hearts’ content.
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Bermuda 10% protein 39% TDN 1.69 Mcal/kg
Coastal Bermuda 12% protein 45% TDN 1.89Mcal/kg
Orchard 10% protein 40% TDN 1.69 Mcal/kg
I can give you the full vita/min breakdown if you want that, too, but Bermuda & Orchard are pretty similar nutritionally, with Coastal Bermuda giving you a slightly higher values.
Orchard does tend to have longer stems than Bermuda, that is just the nature of the grass. Not much you can do about it. I have found that irrigated Bermuda can have some wicked long stems, but the dryland grown is shorter.
[QUOTE=DotFreedom;8395121]
I have heard that both hays don’t have that much nutritional value but do contain some nutrients that hays like alfalfa hay have. [/QUOTE]
While alfalfa is higher in many nutrients, both orchard and bermuda grasses have PLENTY of nutritional value when managed appropriately. Both are generally in the range of 10% protein, but can be much higher depending on how and when the hay was baled. Both offer about 0.9 mcals of Digestible Energy and usually supply sufficient amounts of calcium and phosphorus in at least a 1:1 ratio (depending on where it was grown). There are a whole host of other vitamins and minerals that can be found in both types of hay that vary depending on the growing and cutting conditions.
Can anyone give some me some more insight of what both hays offer and the differences?
As mentioned above, both varieties can be of very similar in nutritional content. Of course, nutrition is affected by how the hay was managed and baled, which is why so many nutritionist recommend a hay analysis. One key difference is that bermuda grass frequently has higher neutral detergent fiber value: this refers to the non-digestible carbohydrates that make up the cell walls of the plants. A high NDF means that less of the nutrients are bioavailable to the horse. Also, the high NDF has also been linked to an increased incidence of impaction colic when horses are fed bermuda. That doesn’t mean bermuda is bad, it just means that you want to avoid bermuda hay that was cut when it was “over mature,” as the NDF increases as grasses age.
Also, “orchard grass” is technically the dactylis species of grass, but in my area, it seems many folks use the term to describe pretty much any mixed grass hay. It’s difficult to make generalizations about the nutritional content when you’re not always talking about the same stuff.
My horses LOVE a good bermuda grass hay. They eat it like crack. They also love a good, true orchard grass. Both are generally regarded as very appropriate forage choices for most all classes of horses.
Good OG is really nice hay.
Bermuda has lots of varieties, so it matters which one you’re talking about. Coastal is quite a different beast from many others, for example. I ended up with some variety of Bermuda from TX 8 years ago during our bad drought, and it was as far from Coastal as one could get.
Not sure where you are located, but I don’t mind Bermuda so much for non-picky eaters if someone else is handling/feeding it. Definitely a “shoe” hay, as in much of it winds up in my shoes, pockets, hair, bleh! And if the strands are long enough to keep the flake together - I do imagine the chance of an impaction is greater.
All my horses tend to prefer Orchard over Timothy over Bermuda, in that order. My picky hay-dunking TB won’t touch it. An alternative might be to try a Nibble Net away from the water.
There is an increased risk of ileal impaction with coastal bermuda. Lots of horses do fine on it, but just be aware.
Thanks for all of the advice it is really helpful:D
Would putting the hay in a net help?
Help with what?
Hay nets can be used to slow down intake while still allowing (near) constant access - smaller holes, double netted, etc
They can be used to keep more of the hay clean (ie off the ground) and actually get a horse to eat more - regular larger holes. Those horses are the ones who just don’t eat hay that their hoof has even move over, much less touched :eek: :no:
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OP, many of the replies contain a lot of good information about bermudagrass and orchardgrass. Specifically, hay production management contributes greatly to nutritional value of the hay, and there are many nice bermudagrass and many nice orchardgrass hays available.
I just wanted to add a few things for clarification. First, neutral detergent fiber is a measure of FIBER (i.e. what’s in the plant cell wall). Fiber IS digested in the horse’s gastrointestinal tract and is a source of energy for the horse. Secondly, although studies have found a correlation between bermudagrass hay and ileocecal impaction, that DOES NOT mean bermudagrass causes colic. Smart feeding management such as making diet changes gradually and having constant access to clean water can help prevent colic.
Best of luck in figuring out what to feed your horses.
[QUOTE=huntjump29;8397791]
I just wanted to add a few things for clarification. First, neutral detergent fiber is a measure of FIBER (i.e. what’s in the plant cell wall). Fiber IS digested in the horse’s gastrointestinal tract and is a source of energy for the horse. Secondly, although studies have found a correlation between bermudagrass hay and ileocecal impaction, that DOES NOT mean bermudagrass causes colic. Smart feeding management such as making diet changes gradually and having constant access to clean water can help prevent colic.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. Google is your friend. Sorry for the curt reply, but please read up:
[QUOTE=Texarkana;8397908]
Wrong. Google is your friend. Sorry for the curt reply, but please read up:
I’m curious as to what part of this you disagree. Other than using the term ‘digested’ instead of ‘fermented’, I believe it’s all correct.
[QUOTE=huntjump29;8397791]
Secondly, although studies have found a correlation between bermudagrass hay and ileocecal impaction, that DOES NOT mean bermudagrass causes colic. Smart feeding management such as making diet changes gradually and having constant access to clean water can help prevent colic. [/QUOTE]
Again, one has to clarify which variety of Bermuda one is talking about.
It is Coastal Bermuda which is the problem. Also, an ileal impaction IS colic. The problem is in what makes Coastal, Coastal. Fine stems, easy to have higher lignin from being cut at the wrong stage, meaning less chewing/breaking down and more indigestible fiber, contributing greatly to an impaction.
The odds are reduced if it’s perfectly grown and cut, but it’s still appreciably higher than other types of hay, no matter how carefully a horse is transitioned.
full text here: http://horsecarevet.com/m.horsecarevet.com/bermuda.pdf
remember, correlation does not equate with causation. I do believe that full adaptation from C3 to C4 grasses takes longer due to the difference in fiber structure. Like maybe months instead of weeks. It has not been studied sufficiently.
"Of the 48 horses with ileal impaction that had access to
Coastal Bermuda grass hay, 7 (15%) horses had been changed to
this hay within 3 weeks of presentation, and 9 (19%) horses were
fed the hay diluted by another type. Four (8%) horses, not
normally fed Coastal Bermuda hay, received this hay accidentally,
either during transport or at a show. Nine of the 13 (69%) horses
with ileal impaction that had been treated with a pyrantel salt had
been treated with 6.6 mg/kg bwt pyrantel pamoate in the 3 months
preceding admission. The remaining 4 (31%) horses were treated
with 2.6 mg/kg bwt pyrantel tartrate daily. No horses with ileal
impaction were treated with the recommended increased dosages
(13.2–19.8 mg/kg bwt) of pyrantel pamoate in the 3 months
preceding admission. "
Using odds ratios (OR) as an index of risk, feeding Coastal Bermuda hay (OR = 2.9) and failure to administer a pyrantel salt within 3 months of admission (OR = 3.1) placed horses at risk of development of ileal impaction.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12358048
Recent evidence indicates that there is at least a three-fold increased risk of a horse developing an ileal impaction if Coastal Bermuda hay is fed, confirming what owners and veterinarians have long believed to be the case. The reason for this association is likely to be the physical characteristics of the hay, which have fine fibers (Photo 2, p. 1E), particularly when excessively fibrous, that appear to form obstructive masses, much like hair blocking a drain.In addition, it is likely that horses do not chew this type of hay as well as coarse-fibered hay. Finally, horses may overeat Coastal Bermuda hay when it is offered free choice, such as placing round-bale hay in a pasture, because they spend less time chewing the hay. However, if the Bermuda Coastal hay is good quality, the likelihood is that the risk of impaction is low.
In a similar study performed in the USA, two risk factors for ileal impaction were identified: 1) the feeding of Coastal Bermuda hay, and 2) the lack of administration of pyrantel pamoate, an anthelmintic with some efficacy against A perfoliata, within the 3 mo preceding development of the impaction.
It is indeed a factor of some of the inherent characteristics of Coastal, such as it’s fine stem, much finer than other hays. Then it’s exacerbated by lower quality cuttings.
I’ve never seen a bermuda grass hay so can’t answer that, but having just had my orchard grass hay tested (all the hay growers around here grow orchard grass, some grow alfalfa, some grow timothy, and some grow a mix) and talking with various hay growers and seeing their hay analyses, I can say that there is a HUGE variety even within a type of hay.
I saw some that had 10% protein, I saw some that had 14% protein. I saw some that had 9% WSC, I saw some that had 24%! WSC. I saw some that were .8something Mcal, I saw some that were 1.something Mcal. And all were orchard grass hay.
You really can’t know unless you have the hay tested.
[QUOTE=Katy Watts;8398247]
I’m curious as to what part of this you disagree. Other than using the term ‘digested’ instead of ‘fermented’, I believe it’s all correct.[/QUOTE]
The term “digested” is exactly the part I disagree with. To say “fiber is digested in the horse’s gastrointestinal tract and is a source of energy” is true, but incredibly misleading in the context of the conversation. My curt response was inappropriate and also misleading, as I now know huntjump29 was addressing fiber in its most broad definition.
But I think it’s important to emphasize that fiber undergoes bacterial fermentation in the hindgut specifically and its energy availability to the horse depends on the type and quantity of structural carbohydrates. A hay can be “high fiber,” but that does not necessarily mean it’s high energy if it is composed of a high percentage of non-digestible lignins or insoluble celluloses/hemicelluloses that are only partially fermented.
Yes, it is a factor for one medical condition, among many factors, among many medical conditions.
But people tend to generalize. Risk management requires looking at a big, complicated picture.
In some places getting locally grown Bermuda is far more economical and logistically easier than getting cool season grass hay shipped in. One can actually go look at it, or buy a few bales and be more assured of consistent quality. It is entirely feasible that focusing on quality rather than species, and staying with a quality source of local hay instead of switching every month for whatever is available may lower risk of compaction colic. And for certain horses, sticking with a steady source of Bermuda can lower risk of laminitis.
I think focusing on consistency and quality is more important, once the horse is properly adapted.
