Origin10/Oriquin10, Possible EPM

[MysticOakRanch]

I have a young mare that I “inherited” when her breeder retired. I’ve kind of regretted taking her on, and now THIS. She has been a bit of a challenge in many ways - she came to me as a feral horse, so I finally overcame that challenge with TONS of time and groundwork. I sent her out for 60 days just before she turned 4 to get started, and then my trainer has been working with her 3 days/week for a while. She was going pretty well, although sometimes she would just stop for no reason - not sure if that is relevant to what is happening, but thought I would throw it in. She is coming 5 now.

Several months ago (late Summer), she looked just slightly off behind - very slight. I had a lameness eval done, and she didn’t get any worse with flexions. Vet agreed it was very slight, and since she couldn’t make it worse, suggested maybe just giving her a bit of time off and see how she looked. Especially since she was a big 4 year old, it made sense this could just be growing pains. I had some chiro work done, just to make sure all was OK there, nothing remarkable noted. Two months off, I started lunging her, and she looked great.

Back to work under saddle, and in about a month, same thing - just slightly off. VERY slight - you can barely see it, but there is something there. Another lameness eval - again, couldn’t make it worse with flexions, but vet spent quite a bit of time watching her lunge both directions and said she appears to be swapping sides - first it looks to be Rt hind, then Lft hind. Not so much lame, but maybe not reaching as much. And maybe a little bit of stabbing instead of reaching (all of this is pretty slight). With that inconclusive hind end “weirdness” - not really lame, just not quite right, we started thinking something neuro, gulp…

So we tested for EPM - of course, that test is not really “conclusive”. It came back borderline - she was 1% above the cut off for “possible EPM”. Wouldn’t you know it - I would have liked something more conclusive (either direction!). We have a 2nd vet looking at it too, and he suggests a spinal tap for more conclusive results. I’m not feeling comfortable with that kind of procedure, to be honest.

Marquis is super expensive of course. A friend suggested Origin10 - she had a mare who was possibly EPM, they treated with Origin10, and the mare is perfectly sound, productive, and schooling 4th level now. So that sounds like a great outcome - but again, we don’t know for sure the mare was EPM to start with. Her titers did go down after treatment. I asked my vet about Origin10, and she didn’t have anything positive to say about it. At all.

So - my question - has anyone used Origin10 with positive or negative results? I did a search on it, and have found opinions that range from miracle cure to snake oil.

Not sure if this is relevant or not, but her half sister (same dam) also had some kind of weird neuro issue. I am not sure what happened to her, but could this be NOT-EPM, but a hereditary neuro thing? Very well bred, imported WB lines, fwiw. I have zero experience with neurological problems in horses (thank goodness).

[luvmyhackney]

I’d give Marquis. It works. Its cheaper than testing forever and finding out that a round of Marquis would have fixed it forever.

[ASB_Stars]

You need a Diclazuril product. Marquis is a metabolite of the old Bayer Baycox. It works by stopping the bugs from multiplying, theoretically. It doesn’t kill them. It just gets all of the press, and support from the drug companies, and therefore the Vets, who aren’t immersed in learning about this thing. They simply sell what they are told might work. No blame there.

Diclazuril is cidal to the protozoans, and crosses the blood brain barrier to get them- most drugs simply cannot do that. The deal with this is that, in addition to there being no test that is actually accurate, they know nada about the life cycle of the protozoans. So, you really need to fry them for as long as your wallet allows- otherwise, you have the inevitable reoccurance of the disease; a relapse. You need to drive them back, by getting the horses blood levels to what is known as “steady state”; the highest level of drug that can be maintained. If you can keep that going through the protozoans life cycle- you have it beat. The idea is to do this for as long as possible, so that your horses immune system mounts a defense in the meantime, and is ready to fight.

I also suggest a good immune stimulant or booster.

Best of luck!

[goodhors]

The test done by UC Davis in CA, seems to be relatively inexpensive, yet quite accurate in finding EPM. I would NOT do a spinal because of the cost. Heck you can buy the Marquis for that amount of test money! A spinal is easy to contaminate. Any blood renders it useless, so then a SECOND spinal is needed to test from.

We used Marquis on our EPM horse, he showed mental improvement in a week, came back 100% physically for more years of use. He had only slight signs, we just knew him so well they were obvious to us. He was just not himself. He had been under a lot of stress being turned into DD’s 4-H horse. Hauled alone when always previously hauled with others. Weekly riding meetings, horse shows, daily riding, so it was easy to figure stress had lowered his immunity and let the protazoa escape the spinal cord.

This young mare has had her life do a 360* change. New home, getting civilized, going to trainer in another new place, getting worked regularly. Nothing is the same anymore! She has had a lot of unavoidable stress. If she is carrying the EPM, her immunity was probably low and could have let them spread.

I am not big on doing many tests, would rather spend on treatment to fix the issue. Some EPM articles promote test after test, spending your budget so you can’t afford to treat them! You might do a search on COTH for Origin 10 or Oriquin 10, read those posts. Make sure you have the name and spelling correct to search.

We used the Marquis, were very happy with the results. It was expensive to me, but much less than some folks spend on saddles, a month at the trainer or the cost of showing at one high level show! Don’t wait to treat, the nerve damage gets worse with time. Doc was surprised we wanted horse tested for EPM, could not detect anything “off” in movement. We just knew horse was not himself and other testing options, x-rays (older horse) were not showing us anything.

Horse never exhibited any EPM signs again after treatment, no physical relapses as other folks talk about. Pretty much all pastured horses in Michigan carry EPM because of the opossum population. We turn out on pasture daily so horse was continuously exposed to the local opossums crossing fields. He continued his 4-H career for another 8+ years, got used to the changes. He was competitive in all areas of games, western, jumping, along with husband using him in Combined Driving at the higher levels. No EPM physical issues again. Catching the problem early had to help with less nerve damage to repair.

[JB]

Specifically, what test(s) was done for EPM?

[mroades]

Spinal taps are rarely recommended. I have used both Marquis and Orogin, had much better results and less relapses with the Orogin.

[MysticOakRanch]

@JB

Specifically, what test(s) was done for EPM?

EPM -IFAT at UC Davis.

@goodhors

The test done by UC Davis in CA, seems to be relatively inexpensive, yet quite accurate in finding EPM. I would NOT do a spinal because of the cost. Heck you can buy the Marquis for that amount of test money! A spinal is easy to contaminate. Any blood renders it useless, so then a SECOND spinal is needed to test from.

This young mare has had her life do a 360* change. New home, getting civilized, going to trainer in another new place, getting worked regularly. Nothing is the same anymore! She has had a lot of unavoidable stress. If she is carrying the EPM, her immunity was probably low and could have let them spread.

The “life change” occurred over 2.5 years - we didn’t throw all of that at her at once! I spent a year and a half just domesticating her. So yes, a series of life changes, but spread out over a period of time.

And we used the UC Davis test - what I’ve been told is that it isn’t all that definitive - or more precisely, there are degrees of indication, and she’s in a lower degree - they analyze the titer number then provide it in a raw number and %. If the % is greater then 75, there is some indication of EPM. This mare was at 76%. And I was surprised at how much the test did cost - more then I would have expected.

And yes, the Spinal scares me - I also consider it pretty invasive.

@ASB Stars

You need a Diclazuril product. Marquis is a metabolite of the old Bayer Baycox. It works by stopping the bugs from multiplying, theoretically. It doesn’t kill them. It just gets all of the press, and support from the drug companies, and therefore the Vets, who aren’t immersed in learning about this thing. They simply sell what they are told might work. No blame there.

Diclazuril is cidal to the protozoans, and crosses the blood brain barrier to get them- most drugs simply cannot do that. The deal with this is that, in addition to there being no test that is actually accurate, they know nada about the life cycle of the protozoans. So, you really need to fry them for as long as your wallet allows- otherwise, you have the inevitable reoccurance of the disease; a relapse. You need to drive them back, by getting the horses blood levels to what is known as “steady state”; the highest level of drug that can be maintained. If you can keep that going through the protozoans life cycle- you have it beat. The idea is to do this for as long as possible, so that your horses immune system mounts a defense in the meantime, and is ready to fight.

I also suggest a good immune stimulant or booster.

Best of luck!

That is what I need to discuss with my vet then. I can’t afford to throw a lot more at her, so that is one reason I’m looking at all the alternatives.

[IPEsq]

The symptoms, especially the getting better with rest, also say SI problem to me.

[JB]

Re: the IFAT test:

[h=1]IFAT Test[/h]
This test can be run on blood or CSF. It looks for the presence of antibodies to Sn SAG2, 3, and 4. Unfortunately, these same three surface proteins also are created by species of Sarcocystis that do not cause EPM. This means the test can’t tell the difference between EPM-causing and non-EPM-causing protozoa. The test is read by humans, and is subjective. It can be run separately to identify antibodies to N. hughesi. It is a quantitative test, using percentages to predict the percentage chance of Sn infection. It is less specific than the Peptide ELISA, and will produce false positive results. This test is only available through UC Davis, and the June 2010 lab fee including both protozoa was $86. The lab will run a full panel using both IFAT and Western BLOT for $136. The test requires shipping blood overnight on ice, which adds to the cost. CAUTION! If your vet does not specifically opt out of the WB, you will be charged for it.

An interesting note on the IFAT… There are no USDA licensed tests for antibodies to Sn, and NO USDA TEST for EPM. EPM is a clinical diagnosis, not a laboratory diagnosis. Even though UC Davis advertises the IFAT as an EPM test, there is no such thing.

http://epmhorse.org/Diagnosis/Tests.htm

SAG1,5,6 testing is the most reliable, as it looks for the protozoa antibodies that indicate active infection. Not past exposure, and not protozoa that don’t cause EPM

[cruisecontrol]

My 17 year old QH was diagnosed with EPM in May 2017 but he went downhill very quickly within two weeks so I gave Marquis because it was on my vets truck. (knock on wood) I have not had any issues horse is now going walk/trot under saddle sound in the hind end minus his age with hock injections. I noticed his weight loss and muscle wasting before any hind end lameness.

A friend of mine did go the Origin route and had 2 relapses before retiring her horse to pasture he is a sound puff ball but work was too stressful and he would relapse. Another friend doing training level eventing had a fall in stadium they did a spinal tap and tested for EPM his was positive she did 4 rounds of Marquis and 4 rounds of the rebalance afterward. Her horse recovered and they are moving back towards training level. If you trust your vet I would follow their instructions. I did 2 rounds of Marquis and 2 rounds of rebalance and have a very happy horse.

[Alliekat2012]

My mare was diagnosed in October of 2017 and was ataxic and had head involvement. I took her to New Bolton Center and they did the blood work and the spinal tap. She was a 3 on the Mayhew scale. She was started on Marquis and Rebalance before the test results came back. Improvement was seen within 24 hours. We have done 3 rounds of Marquis and Rebalance to date and at her check last week she was a 1-1.5 on the Mayhew scale!!! We are stopping the Marquis and continuing the Rebalance for another 3 months or so. We are also starting her on Protozil (diclazuril) 2 days a week. The vets have told me to put her back to work. If I am going to be showing, giving injections, vaccinating basically anything that may stress her system, I am going to give Protozil daily. I am VERY fortunate that she is insured and the insurance has paid for everything so far. That will end soon and I will be responsible for her meds. The Rebalance is affordable but the Protozil is $800+ for a 2 lb container!! Allie has also been on 10,000 iu of Natural Vit E and 10,000 mg of MSM.
Treating EPM is ridiculously expensive!!!

[531]

For what it is worth, I’ve used both Marquis and Oriquin 10 on the same horse. First tested the conventional route and treated with Marquis because it was covered by insurance. Then it came back and ins would not cover. Tested positive with pathogens, so I treated with Oriquin 10 and results lasted with very occasional flare ups. Vets in MD/VA were not positive about Oriquin 10 AT ALL, vets in FL are pretty positive about it, in my experience. Also realty consider your immune support, Vit C, Vit E, Selenium, as well as acupuncture and Chinese herbs, you’d have to search for them, I know they’ve been mentioned on these forums before, I just can’t think of them right now.

[ASB_Stars]

@goodhors

The test done by UC Davis in CA, seems to be relatively inexpensive, yet quite accurate in finding EPM. I would NOT do a spinal because of the cost. Heck you can buy the Marquis for that amount of test money! A spinal is easy to contaminate. Any blood renders it useless, so then a SECOND spinal is needed to test from.

Agree on the spinal- disagree on the ELISA test from UC Davis.

Currently, there is NO test that accurately tells you that your horse has EPM. Period. There are tests that will tell you that your horse has been exposed, but then, up to 80% of the equine population in any given area has been exposed.

The ELISA will tell you that you horse is more, or less, probable. And that’s it.

And I wouldn’t let anyone put a needle into the spine of a horse who is ataxic, or having propriaceptive deficits. And of course, a sedated horse? Nope. Just nope.

If you dig, you’ll find that there is information out there comparing the success rates of the various drugs. However, this presumes an accurate diagnosis, along with the outcomes. Anything from the good old sufla/daraprim has a certain percentage of success, depending on the horse.

My real issue is that there is no useful data on the life cycle of the protozoan(s). If they can encyst in the cord, and wait until the coast is clear, which I tend to believe is the case, you need to 1. cook them for as long as possible- a minimum of 60 days, and 2. support your horses immune system so that they can fight off the next onslaught of bugs, and not relapse.

[AKB]

Two years ago, my horse had mild neuro symptoms (crooked tail, not wanting to jump) and a very high positive test on the SAG testing through Pathogenes. We gave Orogin and he was normal in a few days. His follow up SAG tests were better, but still not normal. We then gave Neuroquel/levamisole then Protazil then more levamisole because the blood titers kept bouncing up. The horse has been perfect since the initial course of Orogin, so perhaps we have overtreated. Read the Pathogenes website and you will learn more about EPM. I think Orogin works, at least a lot of the time. It is certainly cheap and easy to use.

[MysticOakRanch]

Thanks everyone. I wish I could read the future. The testing level is very inconclusive with this mare, which is part of my frustration. Still researching, talking to a few more vets. If the titers came back strongly into the EPM level, it would be more obvious. A friend’s mare tested at 600, mine is testing at 160… I don’t have a huge wallet to throw at her, so there is THAT too. And she isn’t ataxic - if you weren’t really aware of it, you would think she’s perfectly sound. Even my vet says she isn’t really lame. Very frustrated, and not sure this is even her issue, but it is one that I’m exploring.

[AKB]

I understand. I was very skeptical that EPM was causing my boy’s crooked tail and stopping at fences, even with the high SAG titers. Then, the tail became normal and his energy level improved after he started Orogin. I then became a believer. EPM can cause a lot of strange symptoms.

[TWH_Girl]

I used the Oriquin on my horse a few years ago. It was one pill for 10 days and easy to give. Per my vet it has a high safety margin so there was no real harm in giving it even without a 100% confirmation of EPM. EPM did not turn out to be his problem, but horse had no adverse side effects and tolerated the medication well. I had to jump through a few hoops to get my vet to prescribed it because he uses Marquis.

[AA_Hunter]

My mare was also treated with Oroquin tablets (Orogin i think is the name for the tablet form?) last summer. She had pretty significant hind end neuro symptoms. She responded well and has been back to normal since. We broke the tabs in half and mixed in grain, and she ate it, no problem.

[Schiffon]

This is an old thread, but thought anyone considering Orogin/Neuroquel should be aware that Pathogenes received a letter from the FDA in 2017 citing multiple violations. https://www.fda.gov/media/109101/download Most importantly, selling drugs with claims that they treat a disease without having FDA approval (and the proof with a properly designed, unbiased clinical trial, that FDA requires to earn that approval). They’ve cleaned up improper claims on the website that were in the letter since then, but it isn’t clear if they have pursued an appropriate New Drug Application with the FDA. No studies of their drugs have been published in Pub Med since then. Caveat emptor.