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[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=suzy;8558654]
Scribbler, I’m not sure that “competition dressage” versus “classical” is the issue with this board in general (although I know that a few specific threads have gotten pretty heated). I train with someone who is definitely a “classical trainer,” and we love to compete, but we aren’t going to compromise our training for the sake of a score or a silly ribbon, and I really don’t think we are in the minority. I believe (right or wrong) that some of the judging we’ve seen in international competition has made us ALL (classical and competitive) scratch our heads a bit, but I think that, in the past few years, things have swung back in the direction of sticking with time-honored training methods. And, I have to credit Carl Hester and Charlotte to a large degree for moving the needle more toward correctness over flashiness. With that said, I was really impressed by a recent video I saw of Edward Gal on Zonik. I’ve always been impressed with his riding skill but wasn’t crazy about certain aspects of Toto. Watching him on Zonik makes me wonder if some of what we saw with Toto wasn’t peculiar to Toto rather than Edward’s training methodology. Anyway, regarding this forum…as the old joke goes, if you ask two equestrians for an opinion on something, you’ll get three different answers. I think it’s important for one’s sanity to find the humor in some of these threads, where a number of opinions are offered and with such passion. ;)[/QUOTE]

I think that the threads that have gotten really heated have had this difference at their core. IRL I get to watch a lot of lower-level dressage riders/trainers who get a headset with sidereins, then ride around with straight arms and hands on their thighs to mimic sidereins, see-sawing on the mouth, and it is definitely how things are done locally.

It’s not just random bad riding, it is how people are taught to ride and what they believe you have to do to get a “round” neck, and re-inforced by the visiting coaches. If you were to question this (I don’t, to their faces), they’d be as surprised and defensive and loud as some of the posters we see here. They’ve been spending $100 an hour to train with someone who knows someone who went to the Pan Am games. Of course they must be right.

Riders like Suzy, who are using classical techniques to compete, are rare around here. I hope they are more numerous elsewhere!

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=suzy;8558654]
Scribbler, I’m not sure that “competition dressage” versus “classical” is the issue with this board in general (although I know that a few specific threads have gotten pretty heated). [/QUOTE]

Totally agree - I think a LOT of people who compete also train classically. And remember, when you use the term “classical”, that can mean so many different roads. Baucher was classical, after all:cool: Some who claim to be “classical”, read the books, talk the talk, but if you watch them ride, they don’t ride the ride. And then they get upset and blame it on the judges and the “competition riders”.

But if you really look at some of the successful international riders - many are CLASSICAL - look at Carl Hester - he is pretty classical. Steffen Peters is pretty classical. Kyra Kyrkland is pretty classical. AND they are competing. And doing well. I can think of several very classical trainers in California who are also successful competition riders.

I think a lot of us who compete get tired of being told we aren’t riding and training properly - and then the discussions get heated. Especially when you mix in a PFB or someone else who may be asking innocent (but uneducated) questions, or who may actually be purposely stirring the classical pot. Just because we compete doesn’t mean we go around with our horses faces pulled into their chests!

I do agree, this board can get a bit contentious - but it is a great learning forum. And when you get onto a forum where everyone does things exactly the same and always agrees with each other - it is like taking a lesson where all you hear is “good, good, good” - there isn’t as much learning and information exchanged.

[Silverbridge]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8558804]
I think that the threads that have gotten really heated have had this difference at their core.[/QUOTE]

I think that, what gets the threads that evolve into that split more heated, is that there are typically examples of the one “camp” and typically no examples of the other.

That, and that many of the classical experts’ claims spiral to where their feats of accomplishment quickly become more and more difficult to believe.

Discussions make less sense when real-life examples and scores are constantly compared to what some anonymous online personality-- who may ore may not live in Virginia/Pennsylvania/North Carolina, and may or may not even own a horse–claims to accomplish in the FEI arena that exists behind her barn at home.

No?

From my perspective that was a big part of what made posting (regarding training help) on UDBB somewhat pointless as time wore on. Several of the people giving the most advice, and advice based on claiming the most “Classical” backgrounds, in fact had no credentials and were not even very good dressage riders.

That was what I saw anyway. Maybe it’s my journalistic background. I like to investigate and I’m naturally pretty skeptical. Others might not see fraudulent credentials as any big deal. To me, it denigrates the discussion itself when poseurs are involved.

[SendenHorse]

Silverbridge, I’ll vouch for your chops, and I know you can vouch for me!

(with Riot)

I have to say that I agree, when the integrity of the material is in question, it throws off the whole deal. Sure, I could put someone on ignore, but that doesn’t solve the problem in the big-picture sense. As we saw on UDBB, certain Kalssical people sort of spoil the whole deal.

that is why I hate to see threads dissolve. its not about me vs you, it’s about the education of the forum. I suppose it’s impossible to police things, nor should we, but most of us are just doing things to help. When we feel like we have been taken for a ride, or people are just playing around, I feel like I wasted my time.

Like yesterday. I was having a serious conversation and honestly curious about why someone would want her hands on the saddle in dressage… in the sense I was trying to understand.

I put time into my thoughts to be clear. So when that isn’t returned and people are just wasting our time… well when you are so far apart there is no value anymore.

I’m a scientist, so asking questions isn’t insulting to me.

Maybe the forums just will always have this element, I just think it’s unfortunate.

[Crockpot]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8558809]
Totally agree - I think a LOT of people who compete also train classically. And remember, when you use the term “classical”, that can mean so many different roads. Baucher was classical, after all:cool: Some who claim to be “classical”, read the books, talk the talk, but if you watch them ride, they don’t ride the ride. And then they get upset and blame it on the judges and the “competition riders”.

But if you really look at some of the successful international riders - many are CLASSICAL - look at Carl Hester - he is pretty classical. Steffen Peters is pretty classical. Kyra Kyrkland is pretty classical. AND they are competing. And doing well. I can think of several very classical trainers in California who are also successful competition riders.

I think a lot of us who compete get tired of being told we aren’t riding and training properly - and then the discussions get heated. Especially when you mix in a PFB or someone else who may be asking innocent (but uneducated) questions, or who may actually be purposely stirring the classical pot. Just because we compete doesn’t mean we go around with our horses faces pulled into their chests!

I do agree, this board can get a bit contentious - but it is a great learning forum. And when you get onto a forum where everyone does things exactly the same and always agrees with each other - it is like taking a lesson where all you hear is “good, good, good” - there isn’t as much learning and information exchanged.[/QUOTE]

:)Great post.

The so called classical v competitive divide is a false premise. It just gets old and is rather insulting to those who compete and also train ethically and yes classically.

[SendenHorse]

Right, and on the same lines, it’s so hard to have any kind of real conversation with people who jump on any little deep comment as Rollkur…

and imply I’m a bad rider because I put my horse 1mm behind the vertical for one up transition, for a specific purpose.

If you (Ahem, fluffy) don’t know the difference between physical location and contact, RK and a smidge deep classically, then we just can’t get anywhere. Not everything needs to be about RK, it’s a serious issue but geez. let it go. That is not relevant to our daily life.

[RutlandH2O]

OP, if you are looking for other discussion forums because of the negativity you see here on CoTH, the last place you would want to frequent is the Horse & Hound forum!

[Crockpot]

CoTH is not so bad compared to other forums though Off Topic is not for the faint of heart. Fortunately it is easy to avoid that.

I think people do tend to cranky when they think people are trolling and derailing training discussions with delusional or bizarre tangents- but perhaps these people are not trolling.

recently I have been having Ambrey flashbacks. If from the UDDDB you might by analogy compare to a kandie flashback …or vortex… It does tend to bring out the worst in people. Ignore aka cold turkey as in Never Reply is really the only effective cure.n It has been working well for me lately.

[Doctracy]

I’m clueless about Facebook. How do you find discussion groups that interest you?

[Silverbridge]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8558871]
Silverbridge, I’ll vouch for your chops, and I know you can vouch for me! :)[/QUOTE]

I claim no chops at all.

I rarely give training advice or suggestions and, when I do, I try to put it in the context of what my trainers have suggested, or my past experiences with an issue as a First/Second Level riding ammie. They are never made-up experiences and I don’t prescribe formulae for half steps, one tempis, or pirouettes.

And I’ve also had a profile photo since nearly day 1 on this board. Anyone can search up my name, horse’s names, and records, based on my posts. I’m not hiding, I don’t think I need to hide.

I didn’t intend to insert my own posts into the classical/competitive discussion in that way.

I was talking about the condescending, anonymous critics who insist on going there day in and day out. And who are clueless to the derisive snorts inspired by their pronouncements on the horrible state of all modern dressage things. COTH needs a derisively snorting emoticon.

[Crockpot]

[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8559112]
I claim no chops at all.

I rarely give training advice or suggestions and, when I do, I try to put it in the context of what my trainers have suggested, or my past experiences with an issue as a First/Second Level riding ammie. They are never made-up experiences and I don’t prescribe formulae for half steps, one tempis, or pirouettes.

And I’ve also had a profile photo since nearly day 1 on this board. Anyone can search up my name, horse’s names, and records, based on my posts. I’m not hiding, I don’t think I need to hide.

I didn’t intend to insert my own posts into the classical/competitive discussion in that way.

I was talking about the condescending, anonymous critics who insist on going there day in and day out. And who are clueless to the derisive snorts inspired by their pronouncements on the horrible state of all modern dressage things. COTH needs a derisively snorting emoticon.[/QUOTE]

cheers to you, silverbridge

[Silverbridge]

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8558931]
:)Great post.

The so called classical v competitive divide is a false premise. It just gets old and is rather insulting to those who compete and also train ethically and yes classically.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree with you and with the post by MysticOak you’re quoting.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

The difference is the ability to be cordial and discuss concepts in a polite manner even if there are disagreements.

For this reason, I highly prefer well-moderated groups.

[suzy]

RHRT, in theory I agree with you but finding even-handed moderators is not always easy.

Senden, agree with your comment on deep/rollkur. Some people get rabid when anyone suggests putting the horse deep. It makes me giggle since a very lucky friend of mine had the opportunity to spend a couple of days watching the SRS school some of their young horses. She said there were instances of deep; sometimes the horse was curling under of his own volition and other times being deliberately put their by the rider to make a point/regain control. And, SRS is about as classical as you can get.

As far as this forum, I like it and really enjoy a number of posters for their knowledge, sense of humor, or both. The only time I get my knickers in a twist is when I see some wildly incorrect information being dished out by someone with an authoritative voice while unsuspecting newcomers to the sport soak it all in. That’s when I feel obligated to offer a different perspective.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

I know of a few even handed ones.

[atr]

DDBB is a pretty rational place. A small but supportive group with quite a few good technical discussions that haven’t gone off into the weeds.

BBs are like conversation in a bar. You are always going to get a mixture of interesting and well informed people and those who make you go “WTF?” under your breath for one reason or another. Whether you merely politely raise your eyebrows and move on or get involved in a chair flinging brawl is really up to you.

[Rosie_B]

Great posts Silverbridge and MysticOakRanch!

I couldn’t agree more. I seldom chime in on training threads unless I feel like I have something from my own personal experience that could help, and that’s rare.

I’m all for being completely transparent. My handle is my real name. Anyone who’s ever checked out my youtube channel (which I link to openly) knows my full name. If they care to, they can check competition results. I’m just an ammie and I’m not going anywhere special, but I don’t pretend that I am, and I don’t hide nastiness behind anonymity.

I figure everyone is here because they love horses and they love dressage. Everyone is at a different point in their journey, and as long as they’re having fun and aren’t abusing or mistreating their horse, it doesn’t really matter what they’re doing.

Why can’t we just all be nice and treat each other respectfully?

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Rosie B;8559546]
Why can’t we just all be nice and treat each other respectfully?[/QUOTE]

Most people here are great, and I think those who aren’t just sort of don’t last, or people know to avoid them.

[MysticOakRanch]

Personally, I find the FB set up/format harder to follow. I am on a few groups in FB, and seldom participate - it is just more time consuming to try to get through all the threads. And the search function is not as functional!

UDBB use to be pretty good, then a few very “strong” personalities really messed it up. Yes, we had a few like Kande (who reminds me a bit of PFB), who inspired frustration, but we also had a lot of good, knowledgeable people on the board. And I think this forum has many of those same people.

I don’t know of any other forums, other then the various FB ones - and again, it takes a person willing to sort through that different format. I have no patience, hahahaha. I’m also on a few photography forums, and also tend to skip over the ones that are not easy to peruse, no matter how good the information.

Anytime you take (free!) advice from an anonymous internet poster, you have to sort through some chaff.

[Sheri]

I agree. It’s to the point where it is frightening.

I love Horse Forum.

A well moderated forum is what I have learned to
stick with in the long run.

I have had a subscription to Chronicles since 1967, and read them from 1962.
I recently joined here as a paying member to get rid of paper waste.

It might be time for a letter to the editors. But, thats my own opinion.