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Dressage
#61

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8561351]
I understand the difference of RK, deep, behind the vertical, etc. For clarification, not in the warmup ring. I was talking about is riders that always look like they’re taking/forcing contact vs a horse seeking a nice soft contact. I am not talking about the corrections or teaching we do that have the horse behind the vertical for specific reason, and not a way of riding.

I guess I’m trying to say that re rule book and also how we all learn and teach others to keep a horse on contact, vs rider appearing to be holding the horse in with the reins or riding in a way that there’s no way to see if the rider is tense or not because the rider is “holding” the horse behind the vertical. I see this a lot on dressage horses for sale on youtube.

The replies on this thread for proper contact are all correct because we all want to give correct information and ride correctly. But looking at some riders makes it hard to explain that this person may be a professional so why is his contact not fitting the description of correct as we all know it?[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I follow this post.
The replies here being correct? I’m not so sure. It’s all tools, given from a variety of sources.

I never do anything that I don’t test through my lens of my trainer and program.

People might mean well and want to help, but they still maybe ignorant. As I have said, each day is a new experience and what worked last week might not work this week. Horses go through phases of experimenting.

I don’t assume professionals are correct, so I don’t believe in making them Gods.

Regarding this [I] there’s no way to see if the rider is tense or not because the rider is “holding” the horse behind the vertical.

[/I]Of course there is, you look at the whole horse. The body of the horse always shows the quality of the contact and if holding. You look at what muscles are taking the weight and carrying. Is the underneck bulging?
how is the space in front of the saddle being filled up?
does the horse lift his sternum? are the abs contracting up and back lifting?
Is there an impression of harmony and balance?
is the bit being pulled back in the corners?
Does the horse look free from constraint with a tail that goes L and R each trot stride?

THIS shows the difference in a horse being in RK deep, or deep physically only (actually nice into the contact)… all horses go deep sometime. Its just a matter of why, how, and what fix works for that horse.

#62

Senden, I am certainly not talking about the behind the vertical stretch or posture we do as momentary thing. Even Mr. Klimke needed a bit of behind the vertical with Ahlerich in a piaffe. But he never rode his horse that way for a whole test.

I think it’s much easier to see a “forced contact” with the bit after watching Charlotte and Valegro.
I’m sorry, maybe this has been discussed too much, and I see riders that ride their horses permanently that way rather than as a tool.

While I’m at it, I want to clarify something else. When I talk about making or keeping a soft contact it does not mean on the bit. And neither one should be gotten by hands alone.

#63

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8561562]
Senden, I am certainly not talking about the behind the vertical stretch or posture we do as momentary thing. Even Mr. Klimke needed a bit of behind the vertical with Ahlerich in a piaffe. But he never rode his horse that way for a whole test.

I think it’s much easier to see a “forced contact” with the bit after watching Charlotte and Valegro.
I’m sorry, maybe this has been discussed too much, and I see riders that ride their horses permanently that way rather than as a tool.

While I’m at it, I want to clarify something else. When I talk about making or keeping a soft contact it does not mean on the bit. And neither one should be gotten by hands alone.[/QUOTE]

When I talk about making or keeping a soft contact it does not mean on the bit

What does it mean then?

Yes, I agree that you can have good contact on a green horse, it will be different then a horse in self carriage…its really all shades of the same spectrum though…to me a horse needs to be accepting of the bit physically in the mouth before he can start to draw the hand forward, nicely.

To me, contact is the pressure on the reins as the horse seeks the hand. Depending on the stage of the horse, it might be level balance, downhill or uphill in movement.

A horse is on the bit when he accepts the bit in his mouth and draws it forward. It is related to being on the aids where the horse is fully engaged wtih the rider emotionally, physically, mentally and molded with the leg/seat/hand. All are accepted by the horse. There is harmony and the development of collection happens from this balance.

#64

I think you are on to something…and I’m not kidding:cool:

#65

[QUOTE=Pipkin;8560978]
Could it be that the people from UDBB migrated here? :wink: (I’m kidding!!!).[/QUOTE]

I think there may be some truth to that! I also think there is some nastiness creeping into this forum because of the hot button topics that get hashed out in the Off Topic Forum. But like CFFarm I too really appreciate the wealth of experience and knowledge on this board and ignore the snarky and pretentious people.

#66

I do not mind this and a couple of other forums on this board, however I am choosey in what I read because there is a tendency for sniping for sniping sake amongst some posters. I always gauge what I read by topic (is it interesting to me) and number of posts (probably what I would have said has already been said…or the conversation has derailed). Drama can be entertaining if you are in the mood to observe it.

All of that said, there is a lot of knowledge on this board so it is truly my go to. I took a quick boo at Horse Forum…too much visual clutter for me. I always spend some time each day catching up and learning something new.

#67

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8561589]
When I talk about making or keeping a soft contact it does not mean on the bit

What does it mean then?

Yes, I agree that you can have good contact on a green horse, it will be different then a horse in self carriage…its really all shades of the same spectrum though…to me a horse needs to be accepting of the bit physically in the mouth before he can start to draw the hand forward, nicely.

To me, contact is the pressure on the reins as the horse seeks the hand. Depending on the stage of the horse, it might be level balance, downhill or uphill in movement.

A horse is on the bit when he accepts the bit in his mouth and draws it forward. It is related to being on the aids where the horse is fully engaged wtih the rider emotionally, physically, mentally and molded with the leg/seat/hand. All are accepted by the horse. There is harmony and the development of collection happens from this balance.[/QUOTE]

I think I’m just splitting hairs, LOL.

#68

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8561589]
When I talk about making or keeping a soft contact it does not mean on the bit

What does it mean then?

Yes, I agree that you can have good contact on a green horse, it will be different then a horse in self carriage…its really all shades of the same spectrum though…to me a horse needs to be accepting of the bit physically in the mouth before he can start to draw the hand forward, nicely.

To me, contact is the pressure on the reins as the horse seeks the hand. Depending on the stage of the horse, it might be level balance, downhill or uphill in movement.

A horse is on the bit when he accepts the bit in his mouth and draws it forward. It is related to being on the aids where the horse is fully engaged wtih the rider emotionally, physically, mentally and molded with the leg/seat/hand. All are accepted by the horse. There is harmony and the development of collection happens from this balance.[/QUOTE]

“On the bit” is an interesting term. I understand that a more accurate translation of the original term is “on the aids.” That means that the horse is willingly accepting the bit, but also accepting the other aids as well. This could happen with different amounts of rein tension, from quite strong clear contact to a slightly draped rein.

An interesting place to see this spectrum of what it means to be “on the bit” or “on the aids” is in the Andalusian world, which has a combined event called “working equitation” where the horses do dressage, obstacles twice (for style and then for speed), and then a cattle-working or doma vaquero class. When done well, you see the same horse, essentially carrying himself the same way, performing on a draped rein with a curb bit in a western saddle, rider one-handed, and then on clear contact with a snaffle in a dressage saddle, rider two-handed.

“On the bit” shouldn’t be understood as “leaning on the bit” or “pulling on the bit,” either as negative thing to avoid, or as a positive thing (the coaches who say to put all your bodily weight on the horse’s mouth).

#69

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8562493]
I think I’m just splitting hairs, LOL.[/QUOTE]

Care to elaborate more on what contact means to you?

#70

There’s a difference in a training level frame with contact vs a first level frame contact.

#71

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8562847]
There’s a difference in a training level frame with contact vs a first level frame contact.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree. How does each contact feel for you? In thus case lets pretend they are distinct stages. In reality its many shades of gray.
And how would a horse in collection feel different from these lower level horses?

Describe the feeling, not theory. We all know theory ?? thanks!

#72

I’ve tried to write this out but seem to be going in circles trying to explain what I feel. There is no on the bit like Scribbler says. Only on the aids . All the aids are used to teach a horse to carry himself with a rider with balance . As the horse becomes rounder and more collected, one should feel a feel of more power (impulsion) while maintaining a soft contact with the hands. And feel is felt thru all the aids . So I don’t know if one can exactly compare training level feel and collected feel. It is many shades of gray. The best that I can say is that with more and more collection, the horse’s jaw poll and neck should be more and more pliable or soft .

#73

Are people getting their threads confused?

#74

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8564707]
I’ve tried to write this out but seem to be going in circles trying to explain what I feel. There is no on the bit like Scribbler says. Only on the aids . All the aids are used to teach a horse to carry himself with a rider with balance . As the horse becomes rounder and more collected, one should feel a feel of more power (impulsion) while maintaining a soft contact with the hands. And feel is felt thru all the aids . So I don’t know if one can exactly compare training level feel and collected feel. It is many shades of gray. The best that I can say is that with more and more collection, the horse’s jaw poll and neck should be more and more pliable or soft .[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know you are going in circles. that was why I asked for description of you, as a rider, and how to understand this feeling. I know it’s hard, but I think this is really informative for learning.

I actually think the horse in collection has more positive tension, not more suppleness as you said.

A horse that is going towards self carriage to me, feels like that moment JUST BEFORE they come too far above the bit. They feel like they are walking a balance beam. It almost has a “still” quality to me, where things are very deliberate and there is a lot of though before the horse lifts. A “waiting”, not a fling and go quality with too much wiggle. There is power, but it’s “useful power”.

you talk theory, I’m trying to expand this to more of your creative interpretation. What does “soft feel” mean to you?

I think this is why it is so hard to learn from BBs. I’m trying to get past this theory trap.

#75

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8561351]
also how we all learn and teach others to keep a horse on contact, vs rider appearing to be holding the horse in with the reins or riding in a way that there’s no way to see if the rider is tense or not because the rider is “holding” the horse behind the vertical. I see this a lot on dressage horses for sale on youtube.

The replies on this thread for proper contact are all correct because we all want to give correct information and ride correctly. But looking at some riders makes it hard to explain that this person may be a professional so why is his contact not fitting the description of correct as we all know it?[/QUOTE]

Do you teach dressage? I’m not the only one wondering that, by the way.

#76

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8565109]
Are people getting their threads confused?[/QUOTE]

I just want to know if the bug got removed? Is this going to end up like the other thread?

#77

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;8565217]
I just want to know if the bug got removed? Is this going to end up like the other thread?[/QUOTE]

WhaT bug?

This was the contact thread -

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?486792-Seeking-Contact-which-way-is-correct

not sure why they brought it over here. :slight_smile:

#78

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8565222]
WhaT bug?

This was the contact thread -

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?486792-Seeking-Contact-which-way-is-correct

not sure why they brought it over here. :)[/QUOTE]

PFB randomly started discussing contact again, so I went with it. it was at last some answers.

#79

I don’t know how the heck this ended up over here, LOL. But I don’t think there are many threads here that don’t go off course.

I taught beginner thru first level years ago.

A horse that is going towards self carriage to me, feels like that moment JUST BEFORE they come too far above the bit. They feel like they are walking a balance beam. It almost has a “still” quality to me, where things are very deliberate and there is a lot of though before the horse lifts. A “waiting”, not a fling and go quality with too much wiggle. There is power, but it’s "useful power (Sendenhorse)

That’s a perfect explanation! I can’t describe it better than you did.

Soft feel= lack of tension or stiffness in the horse.

#80

[QUOTE=princessfluffybritches;8565354]
I don’t know how the heck this ended up over here, LOL. But I don’t think there are many threads here that don’t go off course.

I taught beginner thru first level years ago.

A horse that is going towards self carriage to me, feels like that moment JUST BEFORE they come too far above the bit. They feel like they are walking a balance beam. It almost has a “still” quality to me, where things are very deliberate and there is a lot of though before the horse lifts. A “waiting”, not a fling and go quality with too much wiggle. There is power, but it’s "useful power (Sendenhorse)

That’s a perfect explanation! I can’t describe it better than you did.

Soft feel= lack of tension or stiffness in the horse.[/QUOTE]

ok, thanks for answering my questions. I didn’t realize you were a professional trainer.

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