OTTB sticking his tongue out to the side while riding

[Bugs_s_Mom]

I had my first ride on my new horse at home yesterday and all went well minus his tongue. I did a quick search and there seems to be some theory that if a bit is too thick they will stick their tongue out in discomfort, is this true?

I had him in the korsteel copper roller eggbutt snaffle bit
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The seller used the Centaur Blue Steel Double Jointed D-Ring with Brass Rollers
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From what I can tell and remember they are the same diameter and both double jointed with copper rollers for him to play with. He did chomp a lot with the Korsteel but I don’t remember him doing that with the Centaur. He would bring his tongue back in when trotting but as soon as we walked it went back out. He accepted the bit fine and when unbridling he held on to it for a few seconds after I had pulled the bridle over his head. Both bits are the same width of 5" which fit him well with very little bit visible on either side of his face.

Any ideas as to why he is doing this and what I can do to prevent it? Should I just buy the Centaur bit and be done with it?

The reason I went with an eggbutt is I wanted a gentle bit that wouldn’t put pressure on his cheeks or lips.

Thanks!

Posted here as advised on “Off COurse”

[Jealoushe]

I have a few thoughts on this. This is very common in Thoroughbreds. My first event horse did it all the time, even XC sometimes! It never affected him other than receiving comments from the judge.

First thing I would suggest is to review your bit fit. What shape is the horses mouth? Is it low? Is the pallet low or high? Are the lips fleshy or thin? Then review the type of noseband you use and whether the horse finds it comfortable. Bit fitting and correct bit choice is sadly something that is overlooked in our industry until recently.

This could also simply be habit from the track, either having tongue tied or dealing with stress. It could be from using too much hand or incorrect aids. It could be from disliking the pressure on the bars, or the lips.

Then onto the physical questions. When were the horses teeth last done? Were they done by a vet or a dentist? Any other issues, possibly saddle fit or a sore back?

Whats this horses training level? Those bits have a lot going on, if it is a green horse. Some horses love the centre piece, but many, especially small TBs find them too much in the mouth.

Some good options to try (warning, not cheap) are bombers happy tongue, Sprenger duo, sprenger novocontact (having a lot of success with this one).

Basically you have to figure out if it is because of habit or discomfort. If it is habit, Carl Hester said at a symposium I audited that you can train this out simply by adding leg on the side of the horse the tongue comes out every single time they do it. He had a horse in the ring and demonstrated and it did actually work.

[danacat]

I agree with @Jealoushe – race track habit. Quite common among racehorses that wore a tongue-tie = prevents tongue from blocking airway. No explainable reason (that I know of) other than: some racehorses just feel more comfortable with their tongue hanging out when their tongue is tied.

They will often keep the habit (regardless of bit used) even when the tongue-tie is a distant memory – not used.

My advice: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. IOW: if your horse goes well with his tongue out, leave it alone. He’s not uncomfortable at all. Ony you are uncomfortable.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@Jealoushe

I have a few thoughts on this. This is very common in Thoroughbreds. My first event horse did it all the time, even XC sometimes! It never affected him other than receiving comments from the judge.

First thing I would suggest is to review your bit fit. What shape is the horses mouth? Is it low? Is the pallet low or high? Are the lips fleshy or thin? Then review the type of noseband you use and whether the horse finds it comfortable. Bit fitting and correct bit choice is sadly something that is overlooked in our industry until recently.

This could also simply be habit from the track, either having tongue tied or dealing with stress. It could be from using too much hand or incorrect aids. It could be from disliking the pressure on the bars, or the lips.

Then onto the physical questions. When were the horses teeth last done? Were they done by a vet or a dentist? Any other issues, possibly saddle fit or a sore back?

Whats this horses training level? Those bits have a lot going on, if it is a green horse. Some horses love the centre piece, but many, especially small TBs find them too much in the mouth.

Some good options to try (warning, not cheap) are bombers happy tongue, Sprenger duo, sprenger novocontact (having a lot of success with this one).

Basically you have to figure out if it is because of habit or discomfort. If it is habit, Carl Hester said at a symposium I audited that you can train this out simply by adding leg on the side of the horse the tongue comes out every single time they do it. He had a horse in the ring and demonstrated and it did actually work.

Thank you!

He is green and has had some off track training but not much and it was a bit inconsistent. I will review his mouth shape and size. His lips are on the thinner side, at least compared to my previous horse. His teeth were done less than 60 days ago by a vet and then checked at the PPE by my vet. Neither are dentists but he has had them done recently. He also does not dribble food or any other signs of sharp or poor teeth.

He does have some known back soreness and I have a thick pad and thicker half pad under my well flocked saddle. He needs more topline and weight in general (~100lbs) otherwise I would have the saddle fitted tomorrow. Chiro is scheduled in two weeks, the soonest I could get them out. He is not what I would call small even for a TB, but his face is not super thick either.

I do agree they have a lot going on and I simply chose the one I did because he seemed to like the one the seller had him in. My last horse went very well in a waterford but that seems like way too much for this guy! There are so many options out there.

Thanks for all of the info, I will take a good look at his mouth and palate specifically tonight.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@danacat

I agree with @Jealoushe – race track habit. Quite common among racehorses that wore a tongue-tie = prevents tongue from blocking airway. No explainable reason (that I know of) other than: some racehorses just feel more comfortable with their tongue hanging out when their tongue is tied.

They will often keep the habit (regardless of bit used) even when the tongue-tie is a distant memory – not used.

My advice: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. IOW: if your horse goes well with his tongue out, leave it alone. He’s not uncomfortable at all. Ony you are uncomfortable.

He certainly did not seem uncomfortable to me or the two ladies that were with us (both with more riding years than I have been on this earth). He actually seemed to move more freely and was more forward than when I test rode him. I did order a loose ring version of the Centaur bit to see if he stops doing it with that bit, if not I will sell one online and move on with my life.

I don’t show so having scores docked for it aren’t a concern, I just want to make sure he is comfortable as I have not dealt with this previously.

[Jealoushe]

Although it is likely habit, back soreness can invoke some of these things. I recommend doing massage on his back, even yourself there are things you can do (youtube is an awesome resource), and work him over his topline stretched with his neck as long as possible (if possible). Add raised poles, do backing up with their head down and round. Day by day they get stronger and their back will become stronger too. Good luck and keep us updated.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@Jealoushe

Although it is likely habit, back soreness can invoke some of these things. I recommend doing massage on his back, even yourself there are things you can do (youtube is an awesome resource), and work him over his topline stretched with his neck as long as possible (if possible). Add raised poles, do backing up with their head down and round. Day by day they get stronger and their back will become stronger too. Good luck and keep us updated.

I do need to massage him frequently, the BO and I did some the day before I rode him and he thoroughly enjoyed it. I will add poles and start working on backing in the saddle, he does it beautifully on the ground I do know it will be a slow process but we will get him there.

Thanks for the advice! I’ll see how he does with the loose ring version of the Centaur bit and update everyone!

[frugalannie]

All great advice above, and your working plan and expectations are terrific. If you feel at some point that pain has been ruled out, consider straightness and throughness. Yes, I have an OTTB who does this despite being relaxed and happy under saddle. Hence her nickname: The Gecko.

In her case she needs to be straight through her whole body (even when bent, which just means that her bend has to be even nose to tail and balanced), and even then she will cross her jaw a little and out comes the tongue. I can ride her to lessen it, but if I’m not attentive, there it is.

I mention throughness only because your horse does it at the walk but not trot. Once he’s strong enough to develop a good, marching working walk, the tongue might stay in. IMHO unless there’s a bit that’s REALLY wrong, it doesn’t make much of a difference. My horse is best in a Micklem bridle with a ported mullen mouth snaffle (basically a straight bar snaffle with a port). Your mileage will definitely vary!

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@frugalannie

All great advice above, and your working plan and expectations are terrific. If you feel at some point that pain has been ruled out, consider straightness and throughness. Yes, I have an OTTB who does this despite being relaxed and happy under saddle. Hence her nickname: The Gecko.

In her case she needs to be straight through her whole body (even when bent, which just means that her bend has to be even nose to tail and balanced), and even then she will cross her jaw a little and out comes the tongue. I can ride her to lessen it, but if I’m not attentive, there it is.

I mention throughness only because your horse does it at the walk but not trot. Once he’s strong enough to develop a good, marching working walk, the tongue might stay in. IMHO unless there’s a bit that’s REALLY wrong, it doesn’t make much of a difference. My horse is best in a Micklem bridle with a ported mullen mouth snaffle (basically a straight bar snaffle with a port). Your mileage will definitely vary!

Thank you!

I will work on the changes and wee what happens. The goal ultimately is to get him balanced obviously but we have a ways to go before he will be there.

Love the nick name for your girl BTW!

[merrygoround]

@Bugs's Mom

I had my first ride on my new horse at home yesterday and all went well minus his tongue. I did a quick search and there seems to be some theory that if a bit is too thick they will stick their tongue out in discomfort, is this true?

I had him in the korsteel copper roller eggbutt snaffle bit
[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: 41QIqLi32NL.AC_SL1500.jpg Views: 1 Size: 10.5 KB ID: 10584376”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10584376”,“data-size”:“thumb”}[/ATTACH]
The seller used the Centaur Blue Steel Double Jointed D-Ring with Brass Rollers
[ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: 61nbKS8HO5L.AC_SL1500.jpg Views: 1 Size: 11.8 KB ID: 10584377”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“10584377”,“data-size”:“thumb”}[/ATTACH]
From what I can tell and remember they are the same diameter and both double jointed with copper rollers for him to play with. He did chomp a lot with the Korsteel but I don’t remember him doing that with the Centaur. He would bring his tongue back in when trotting but as soon as we walked it went back out. He accepted the bit fine and when unbridling he held on to it for a few seconds after I had pulled the bridle over his head. Both bits are the same width of 5" which fit him well with very little bit visible on either side of his face.

Any ideas as to why he is doing this and what I can do to prevent it? Should I just buy the Centaur bit and be done with it?

The reason I went with an eggbutt is I wanted a gentle bit that wouldn’t put pressure on his cheeks or lips.

Thanks!

Posted here as advised on “Off COurse”

Are you saying that he did not exhibit tongue waving with the Centaur bit, but now does with a nearly identical bit?

In that case simply buy a Centaur. before the habit becomes ingrained.

IME tongue problems are frequently solved y changing the riders hands, arms, etc.

[IFG]

Another option if he has a fat tongue are some of the Myler ported snaffles. Some of them are dressage legal now. The port gives the tongue a place to go.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@merrygoround

Are you saying that he did not exhibit tongue waving with the Centaur bit, but now does with a nearly identical bit?

In that case simply buy a Centaur. before the habit becomes ingrained.

IME tongue problems are frequently solved y changing the riders hands, arms, etc.

Correct, he did not do it in the Centaur bit and I did order that one (hopefully it will arrive soon). I have pretty quiet hands and don’t use much contact but it could very well be me causing the problem. I rode him longer for the first ride at home than I did in the test ride not sure if that would affect anything (he didn’t immediately stick his tongue out).

[Houndhill]

My OTTB always does it before he is fed. He does not do it under saddle unless someone is trying to take a picture of him- then he always looks like a dork! His trainer on the track said that they used to play with him by grabbing his tongue (gross!).

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@Houndhill

My OTTB always does it before he is fed. He does not do it under saddle unless someone is trying to take a picture of him- then he always looks like a dork! His trainer on the track said that they used to play with him by grabbing his tongue (gross!).

That is gross!

This is the only time I’ve noticed it. He just vocally demands dinner and breakfast but no other feeding habits.

[LookmaNohands]

I would take the bit out and ride him in a hackamore for a time. I do this with all the OTTBs that I reschool. I get them going nicely without a bit then add it later. This takes care of many of the problems and tensions they have because of the bit.

[Bugs_s_Mom]

@LookmaNohands

I would take the bit out and ride him in a hackamore for a time. I do this with all the OTTBs that I reschool. I get them going nicely without a bit then add it later. This takes care of many of the problems and tensions they have because of the bit.

I have never used a hackamore and am not opposed to it just don’t want to cause any issues. Are there gentle versions that you recommend?

[Manahmanah]

mine will protest with this if he bored. that’s when we change to something harder… spiral in/out, shoulder in, leg yields, etc. tongue goes right back in when he’s thinking

[Bugs_s_Mom]

Thanks for all of the advice. I changed to the bit the previous owner used in a loose ring vs D-ring and he still stuck his tongue out. Monday I had the chiropractor out and he had several thing out of alignment including his TMJ and hyoid apparatus, sever cervical and thoracic vertebrea a titled pelvis and stifle joints. He did stick his tongue out some last night (much less than before) during our ride but holy cow was he much more forward and free in his movements!

I am going to keep doing light work to build his topline as we also put weight on him and see if the tongue thing stops. I am also going to keep him up to date on chiro as it is clearly helping.