OTTB that constantly sticks his tongue out and gets his tongue over the bit?

[ottb_finley]

Hi everyone, I’m wondering if anyone else has experienced this and if you found anything to work. I have a 4 year old OTTB that sticks his tongue out whenever he has a bit in and has recently started getting his tongue over the bit frequently. It looks funny but with him being so young, it is something I would like to try to fix now. I have talked to several people that say it is usually an issue that most can’t fix but I want to at least try. He currently goes in a Myler level 1 loose ring and I have tried a figure 8, flash, and regular noseband with no difference. Some suggestions to try have been a hackamore for awhile, a drop noseband, a waterford, and a double jointed bit. Surprisingly, he doesn’t resist contact and goes lovely. I’m just curious if anyone has any outside of the box advice to try. He is training to be a lower level event horse. Thanks so much!

Note: To be more clear, this is a floppy tongue from being tied @ the track. The problem has existed, it is not something he has developed since coming into his new career. If a bit is in his mouth, his tongue is hanging out to the side.

[ACMEeventing]

It could be habit (tough to break) or it could be him experimenting with accepting the contact. Sometimes when people say “he doesn’t resist contact and goes lovely” what they’re really feeling is a featherlight pressure because the horse is hiding behind. Not saying this is your scenario, but without knowing anything about you I had to throw it in the ring, especially since he’s only 4 and having enough push from behind to demonstrate that level of self carriage is impressive.

If it were me, I would put him in the absolute most gentle bit I had and ride him forward without insisting on any type of frame and see what his tongue does. Even put him in a round pen and lunge with the bridle on and observe his tongue without the influence of a rider. You might be able to explain to him that contact is something to depend on for guidance instead of something to evade.

If it’s a floppy tongue from being tied . . . . different scenario.

[ottb_finley]

Sorry, I should’ve been more clear and will edit my post. It is a floppy tongue from being tied.

[ottb_finley]

And your advice is pretty much exactly what I’ve done. He gets ridden very forward from seat and leg, into the bridle. He has his tongue out anytime a bit is in his mouth, even with no rider on.

By “he doesn’t resist contact and goes lovely,” I certainly do not mean perfect but very impressive for a 4 year old. Natural, uphill self carriage, nothing fake or cranked in.

[ottb_finley]

Basically I was planning on ignoring it and continuing on in his training with his current bit and hoping someday it will go away but I had my first dressage lesson on him with the previous assistant trainer @ Hasslers and she said everything i’m doing is correct but she would not ignore it. She’d try everything possible to try to stop it.

[vineyridge]

The problem is that dressage will take off many, many points for a tongue that is out of the mouth. I have an OTTB that does this, and when I tried to figure how why, I found that there can be permanent nerve and cartilage damage from tongue ties. She goes best in bits that do not move in the mouth, so she goes in a full cheek with keepers or a boucher, preferably with a mullen mouth if I can ever find one. Nothing so far has stopped it completely, but the stable bits reduce the frequency quite a bit.

It’s my impression that many OTTBs do not like O ring bits. Most race in D rings, which are more stable than O rings.

[ottb_finley]

Exactly. He is so so nice and I hate to think about his dressage scores suffering from it. Thanks so much for the advice, I will definitely try that!

[Twigster]

Any movement with the tongue out in a dressage test is a mandatory 4. (ask me why I know this :()

My last mare was very unhappy with an unsteady contact and unless she was perfectly in between your legs and your hands were absolutely dressage-perfect positioned above the withers and 5" apart, she would stick that thing out left right and center. It was an education. She appreciated a figure eight noseband for quietness in the bridle as well, but the bit didn’t matter.

My current gelding who came off the track last summer and I have just started getting serious with (he’s had about 6 weeks of riding here and there after rehabbing a bowed tendon due to various mishaps) sticks his tongue out to the left when things are “too noisy”. I recently switched him from a slightly thicker KK ultra LR to a thinner stainless steel mullen mouth bit and he is much happier when things are quiet in the bridle.

I would try wrapping your bit, a mullen mouth, or a loose-ish flash/figure-eight and see if you can’t encourage some quietness in the bridle.

[vineyridge]

My girl seems to like a single jointed, corkscrew (slow twist) full cheek; why I do not know, but she must.

[Twigster]

OTTB mares, one thing they aren’t short on is opinions! :lol:

[vineyridge]

I just found this very interesting article on bit severity. http://www.equiworld.net/saddlery/bitseverity.htm

According to it (and its interpretation of a Deb Bennett article from 1993 or so, her slow twist, copper mouth full cheek is very, very mild.

[beowulf]

Is it actually floppy tongue? As in, does the horse do it in the paddock as well, at rest, all the time, no matter the situation? If the answer is no, then I don’t think you are looking at nerve damage. IME horses that actually have nerve damage in their tongue cannot control it very well and it is out no matter the circumstance.

The tongue is one of the most vascular organs - it heals incredibly, incredibly well. Lots of OTTBs at the track may sustain some sort of damage here or there because of a tongue tie but IME it heals extraordinarily well.

Tongue waggling U/S has consistently been a sign of sore SI (sometimes even KS) and stifles in my experience – even my lameness vet has noted the correlation between tongue behavior and hind end issues. The tongue hanging out has always been a secondary symptom that something is uncomfortable behind. Does he have weak stifles? Have you had his saddle fitted to him? Does he root? Grind his teeth? Those are all symptoms of back soreness and SI pain.

I’ve had a lot of OTTBS and taken care of many over the years and once they start that habit it is very hard to fix even after you address whatever the primary issue is. I think your best bet is to thoroughly examine him - not just his tongue - because usually it is not the tongue that is the issue but something sore behind.

As far as bitting - drop nosebands are legal, that would be my first go to as lots of horses will flip their tongue over a bit they feel is unstable. Drop nosebands quieten the bit. I’d be ditching the Myler solely because in my experience they provide too much bar pressure and pinch the tongue – almost all the OTTBs in my program have done well in an HS Eggbutt duo - the bit is stable and the lozenge is gentle.

ETA: Apparently I’m not the only one that thinks that waggling tongues may be a sign of issues behind - there is a small portion of In Col. Podhajasky’s book, The Complete training of Horse and Rider, that mentions that horses that stick out their tongue U/S usually have some sort of spinal or SI issue, typically on the same side they wring their tongue out.

[vineyridge]

I just found this very interesting article on bit severity. http://www.equiworld.net/saddlery/bitseverity.htm

According to it (and its interpretation of a Deb Bennett article from 1993 or so, her slow twist, copper mouth full cheek is very, very mild.

[Twigster]

Beowulf, forgive my ignorance, what do you mean with the abbreviation KS? Kissing spines?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Twigster;8573612]
Beowulf, forgive my ignorance, what do you mean with the abbreviation KS? Kissing spines?[/QUOTE]

Yes! btw, your browbands are very pretty.

I can go more into depth if anyone wants regarding what I’ve experienced. It’s certainly not that all horses who stick their tongue out have SI/KS/stifle/hock/suspensory/hind end issues – it’s just been in my case there has been a very big correlation. I’ve especially noticed it as these OTTBs “come up the levels” and more contact/connection and thrust from behind is expected - once you start to see them do it in the extended trot or even medium trot or canter I think it’s a good idea to ascertain if your horse is comfortable, and if not, to figure out what is causing the discomfort.

Honestly, most oTTBs do have some sort of residual trauma from the track especially in the SI area - sometimes it doesn’t pop up until the horse’s workload increases enough.

[Twigster]

Thank you! They are something I enjoy making in my spare time.

Your comments on this thread have prompted me to email my clinic to schedule a chiro appointment for my ‘new’ boy. He seems remarkably un-body sore for an OTTB, and I was chalking his tongue out to the left up to this novel “contact” thing, but there is no sense in not having him checked over, especially since I am will be putting him to real work in the next 4-6 weeks. Thank you for posting!

[Boo]

A friend of has a rather different approach and it worked for her several times that i know of. I’ve never had to do it myself though. She starts and rides stock horses mostly but her horses are often borrowed by another of their friends for shows - dressage and show horse stuff.

Anyway they take the noseband off and lower the bit a hole or 2. Basically so its not banging on the teeth but also not really pressuring the mouth. The horse then has to learn to carry the bit, which means the tongue doesn’t get over the bit.

They work them like this for a bit till then once the habits gone lift the bit slowly again. Works for them.

[ewells]

Another suggestion
http://www.nunnfiner.com/Nunn-Finer-Adjustable-Lever-Noseband-p/280b.htm
This is Dressage legal and also goes by the name Crescent Cavesson. This cavesson provides very good stability I have heard it can help with grinding and other issues including tongues out. Might be worth trying. This is not a sever cavesson it is very simaler to a drop nose band but adjusts below and above the bit so much more secure and stable.

[frugalannie]

Been struggling with tongue sticking out with a lovely English bred OTTB for years. Ruled out everything physical/ pain/teeth etc. She’d not tense: her ears will just flop along with her movement when the tongue is out and as with the OP, contact feels the very best when (rats!) her tongue is out.

With her, we have it down to two things: straightness and slight jaw crossing. If I have her completely, 100% straight, not even a 1/4 inch deviation the tongue will be in. The other thing, slight jaw crossing is corrected by the hand on the other side raising up about 8 inches from it’s mate, changing the angle of the bit in the mouth and softening her jaw. NOT pulling back (which is the tricky part) just moving vertically from where it was and then returning when the tongue disappears. Rinse, repeat endlessly until the tongue stays in longer and longer.

Tack on my mare is a Micklem bridle with a straight bar snaffle, so there isn’t much movement. She was in a KK before but goes better in the straight bar.

So there is another person’s idiosyncratic experience. YMMV.