OTTB will not keep tongue in head!

[Blueeyedroan]

Seeking advice for an extreme case of tongue over the bit and out of the mouth!

Coming 8 year old OTTB mare. Was still racing as of last October, 46 starts and successful.
I’ve put about 6-8 rides on her since she came off the track and I bought her. So she’s green by all means.

When you put the bridle on, that tongue is IMMEDIATELY over the bit and lolling out of her mouth, left side to right side and reaching up the side of her face - or yours if you’re close enough. You can crank the bit as high as you want and her tongue is still over it in seconds. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Oddly enough this manifests itself worst when she’s standing.
She does not flip her head up and run through the bit.
She does not shake her head.
She’s not even high headed or hollow. Will trot around head down like a western horse on a loose rein quite contently.
She does not object to contact or fight your hands.
She will do it when working but just not as much or as badly as when she’s standing/walking.

I plan to do some showing/eventing with this horse. Can’t have her tongue sticking out the side of her head over the bit.
As much as there’s really no other negative behaviour alongside it (amazingly ?) - it still looks awful.

Everyone’s advice is to just crank her shut with a figure 8 but that’s really a bandaid not a cure.
I take the nosebands off my bridles completely and ride open faced unless I’m at a show and I HAVE to have one.
She’s in a french link, curved mouthpiece D-ring that the 10 ottbs before her never objected to.

I have not had her teeth checked yet . Will be doing it this spring when my other horse is due.

Any advice ?

blurry unattractive screen shot of said tongue for fun and lunging pic to show content mouth too

[GraceLikeRain]

I wouldn’t wait until spring to have a dental check on a horse showing this much bit aversion. I’d also go bitless for an extended period of time. You’re right that cranking the mouth shut is a bandaid. There’s been some good recent articles that indicate tongue issues often have a pretty notable pain component elsewhere in the body.

Personally, my route would be dental, full lameness work up, saddle fitter, and check for ulcers. From there, bitless hacking out with as little rein interaction as possible and reevaluate in a few months. Lastly, no one told her that she’s supposed to like a bit just because other horses have so when I put her back in a bit I’d go to a bit clinic and try out an array of options or think outside the box like a leather or poly rope type of set up.

[trubandloki]

I personally would not be waiting to get her teeth checked. Have someone out to look at her mouth and her tongue, sooner.

I would also try a different bit. Just because every other OTTB liked this bit, does not mean she needs to like it. Find a bit with more tongue relief, or maybe a bit with more pallet clearance. Just keep trying different bits to see if you find one she likes. She might like a big (diameter) mouthpiece (which seems like the opposite of what we would think).

She looks to be quite lovely. I think you just need to make sure there is not something physically wrong first and then start trying bits until you find something she likes best.

Edit to add - Gracelikerain and I had the same thought at the same time.

[evtrmom]

We leased an absolutely lovely ottb who did this. She was an incredibly mover, super willing etc. Her issue was damage to her tongue from being tied from racing. We did recognized low level eventing and she was marked down for it in dressage most times, one judge came out of her car after the test asking about it and my son defended his mount (he was a young teen) I even spoke to a TD about it and she said we could mention it on entry form that it was damaged and not being evasive.
Just another perspective as sometimes their tongues are damaged from being tied down incorrectly. Best of luck to you in finding answers.

[Maythehorsebewithme]

@evtrmom

We leased an absolutely lovely ottb who did this. She was an incredibly mover, super willing etc. Her issue was damage to her tongue from being tied from racing.

Similar situation with a friend’s horse. Everything else was checked by an excellent vet. Vet concluded tongue damage from its being tied down. Horse had 35 starts over 8 years. Friend rides jumpers, so tongue does not matter.

[beowulf]

The mouth and tongue are usually a reflection of the horse’s tension or anxiety. I agree with others it may be time to push the spring dental forward, but don’t discount pain elsewhere. It may be worse while she’s standing because she’s apprehensive about the work being asked of her and does better keeping busy.

This is a very common symptom of physical pain in horses, and it’s common in ex-racers by the nature of how hard their former job was. Sometimes it’s from very fixable things like poor saddle fit or maybe some residual foot soreness from the track. I’ve also seen it correlated to sore stifles or backs. Generally with fresh OTTBs, their whole body hurts and it takes time for the residual soreness from the track to resolve. Good farriery, nutrition, getting a pro saddle fitter out, massage and/or chiro, as much T/O as possible, and fixing those race angles will go a long way to make a horse happier in their body.

I agree to try a different bit for now. A cheap and easy fix. While I like french links, not all of my TBs have. What’s been most popular with my roster has been a single jointed baucher.

[Blueeyedroan]

Her teeth were done last year, so she’s not way overdue.

Has nothing to do with saddle. You can bridle her without a saddle on and she will do it just the same.
Rode her bareback with no change.
She’s not girthy in the least, doesn’t wiggle during tacking up. Keeps weight on unusually well.
Zero signs of the classic OTTB ulcer/pain issues.

I’m thinking this is a learned anxiety and self soothing behaviour. Which would explain why it’s worse at idle and goes away when she’s focused on a job . It’s a habit not an evasion.
And that it may have something to do with being tongue tied.

I did put her in a western snaffle that has super loose easy to play with copper rings on the middle dog bone. She was absolutely fascinated and content playing with that. I wouldn’t say the mouthing got better but the tongue stayed in a bit more playing with it.

I’m not quite ready to spend THOUSANDS yet doing a full body work down on a horse that does not show any aversion to work, and the behaviour goes away with work.
If something else starts to rear its head I’ll connect the dots and start there for sure.

How common is tongue tying ?

[endlessclimb]

Nearly every horse is tongue tied at the track.

[Blueeyedroan]

She’s definitely tight as they all are.

Lots of swingy trot on a loose rein. And half of her rides so far have been out into the trails which she has been super about. Hills. Varying terrain on a loose rein and she’s smart enough to drop her head, engage her back and watch her feet. Not a tense up and rush type which makes stretching her out so much easier.
Did a nice canter in the snow on Sunday down a forest service road - she was in heaven. Well, I was pretty in heaven too.

[LCDR]

As you are an experienced horse owner with ten or more OTTB experiences behind you, you already know the drill.

I’d look for a board certified veterinarian dental practitioner. They are rare but that is who I’d want; they are far superior in training and experience with all oral problems than the average tooth floater.

Bits? Might as well keep trying in the interim. You probably have accumulated quite a few. I have a big container of them labeled “magic bits.” All were recommended to magically solve problems mainly with one horse, who ended up going cross country in a hackamore. I’d be happy to loan the bit collection to you if you are close by.

[lightningevent]

Popping in here because I also have a horse that does this. We’ve never confirmed 100% whether its nerve damage for him or a self-soothing habit, but I’ve owned him 5 years now and it’s a habit that has fully stuck - through several different trainers and a couple different riders.

Dressage was frustrating for us (my favorite was when when did Intro B and lost a point for every movement where the judge could see his tongue. Literally, -1 TO for every time she could see the tongue. At Intro B). But otherwise he’s happy, healthy, and now toting his junior rider around the local equitation circuit, so it’s not something we’re working to change.

Photos here to show the tongue - he does it while working and while standing, and for us, it just is what it is.

[Jealoushe]

“Done last year” really means nothing. Some horses need dentals every 6 months. Mine just got done at month 8 and they all had edges or waves that needed tending to.

Not only horses who are tongue tied do this, so it’s not just a learned behaviour from the track.

It’s likely a pain or discomfort causing this, your first step should 100% be a dental visit that includes x rays of the head. You can only see dead roots or cracked teeth properly with X rays and both those could easily be present.

After the dental exam is done I would look into the Neue schule bits, specifically the turtle top which can help with a horse who puts their tongue over the bit.

It’s going to take some money to explore the reason and try new things, so prepare yourself for that.

[BrownDerby]

FWIW I knew the most wonderful A/O jumper whose tongue was always out. His owner was always disappointed when the show photographer removed his tongue from the photos.

[Blueeyedroan]

Well it looks like i’m lucky in that she ONLY does it when standing and a little tiny bit at the walk! She readily accepts contact and looks normal when she’s going along. It seems like the amount she’s doing it at the walk is reducing a bit.
She does it heavily when she’s being asked a question she doesn’t quite know how to answer. And reduces again as she understands what you’re asking.
Maybe I can view it as a brain-o-meter because it really does seem to reflect what her mind is doing.
“Brain is falling out, brain is falling out… oh… oh… brain is computing” haha!!
She also seems to really take pleasure in placing the tongue upon me. It has to be one of the grossest sensations. ICK. Sometimes I think they know exactly what they are doing.

I did have an extensive bit collection. Went through some life… stuff… the past few years and sold off a lot of my extra bits, saddles,bridles from years of project horses. Swore OFF of them.
Should have known i’d be back to it - smh.
Always been curious about the Bombers. Less enthused with the pricing. Have done my time with Sprengers and Mylers, never been impressed with either.
Bomber actually seems to have some interesting designs, same with the Neue Schule bits.

Have a local vet who has branched off into ONLY equine dentistry. That’s who i’ll be getting out.

[theresak]

I love my Bombers bits and have had Dapper Horse special order from Bombers for me. I had a bit fitting as well and she listed several bits to try with him, all of which were improvements over my trials of KKs, mullens, etc. She directed me to look for specific structure (thin and bar relief) and I’ve experimented since with loose ring, eggbutt, and baucher but all with almost the same mouthpiece.

My young WB had some tongue issues and it was the worst at the walk - it was often him being behind the leg and mental/physical tension. Multiple trainers just told me to ignore it and it would get better as he got stronger, more confident, and understood contact and connection better. However, my WB had no baggage/history with a bit like an OTTB might.

[SBrentnall]

I had a TB who did this, and my vet thought it was a side effect of excessive tranquilizer use early in life.

There was no fix, and we got dinged at every dressage show. I simply accepted that we would not be competitive, but kept showing for the experience and judge’s feedback.

[candyappy]

@Blueeyedroan

Have a local vet who has branched off into ONLY equine dentistry. That’s who i’ll be getting out.

Did your mare do this when she was at the track? Or is it just since coming to you?

[skydy]

It’s very common in race horses.
In this instance, Yaupon was lucky he sticks his tongue out on the near side. You can see the tongue tie on Firenze Fire

Yaupon Repels a Savaging Firenze Fire in Forego

[Lusoluv]

And you can clearly see Yaupon’s tongue hanging out the left side of his mouth. Both horses’ tongues are tied tight appear blueish due to lack of blood flow. I have a client whose OTTB’s tongue hangs out. He does it less with me (10%) vs with his owner, but I have a bit better body control and rarely use the reins, just keep a steady contact. Owner is always dinged in her dressage tests, but if her accuracy and keeping him on the bit & aids continue to improve, she can score in the low 30s despite tongue dings. I’ll admit it’s very frustrating, but he’s a lovely, safe horse in all other regards, so we take the good with the ugly.

[skydy]

Yes, that’s what I mentioned. He’s lucky he hangs his tongue out on the near side or Firenze Fire might have grabbed it!