our new dog attacked my horse--can this be fixed?

about two months ago we lost our wonderful heeler mix to bone cancer. he was the perfect dog for us–very soft, kind, obedient, loyal, loved everybody, got along great with other dogs and horses, and a tireless trail runner. an unforgettable dog, though we only had him two years, after adopting him from the county animal shelter.

hoping for lightning to strike twice, we started looking for a new dog at the pound, on FB, etc.

we are now almost at the end of the first week of a two week tryout of a two year old purebred heeler. the woman who is giving him up is the second owner. the first owner, who bought the dog as a puppy, was a cowboy who wanted the dog as a working cattle dog on a ranch.

we don’t know the real story behind why the dog was given up the first time. this time, it’s because of the owner getting divorced and moving back east. she’s had him since he was 9 mos. old.

the dog is amazingly smart, super obedient, and has decided, from the moment he met me, that i am his person, and he mostly ignores my husband. he’s totally trustworthy off leash–great recall–and actually is very relaxed and quiet around the house, though we haven’t yet seen if we can trust him outside a crate when i’m out of the house.

he’s also very intense and quite feral, almost seems like a wild animal in some ways. i find this a bit unnerving.

the day we brought him home, we swung by the barn. he growled at my horse, but we chalked it up to him being in a new situation.

a couple of days later, i brought him back to the barn. while i was filling the hay nets, he lunged at the BO’s gelding (who was safely in his stall). a bit later, when the BO was there chipping ice out of the gelding’s hooves, he growled at the gelding.

today, when he was within about five feet of my horse, she started snorting at him. she grew up with a pack of dogs, and has no fear of them. he started snarling at her. the BO held him while i did some round pen work with her, then tied him up in the barn.

when i went into the barn with my horse, the dog flew right past me, through the air, and landed on my horse’s thigh. there was a leash attached, and i got him off the mare fast. the mare is not bleeding and pretty much just ignored the dog.

i put the dog back in my car and attended to my horse; i was pretty shaken. the dog looked to me like it was in full attack mode. i can’t be sure but it looked like the dog either hates horses, or did not like it that the horse had my attention (our other heeler also got jealous of the horse, but expressed it by nudging me for attention, not by attacking the horse!)

i have already called the dog’s owner and let her know what happened (left a VM). my husband is in love with this dog–a great running companion for him. i’m less enamored, and also really missing the dog we lost–hard not to compare unfavorably!

so i’m aware that i’m going to be less forgiving of this new dog.

so, with all that background, my question is–can the dog be made reliable around horses? if so, how would you go about doing it?

it’s not feasible to keep the dog away from the horse, if we’re going to keep him, because my husband and i want to spend our little free time together, and that means including our dog and our horse. we go hiking/riding into the mountains and also saddlepacking as a family. it’s impractical to own a dog that has to be excluded from activities with the horse.

also i ride a lot in groups of friends with their dogs, and want a dog that can be included on those outings. he is good with other dogs, from what we have seen so far.

it is not worth it to me to risk my horse being injured. but if it’s possible to get this dog reliable and trustworthy with my horse, i would like to try, for my husband’s sake.

what do you advise? especially would like to hear from experienced heeler owners.

many thanks in advance.

Wow! This is a tough one! I’ve grown up with herding dogs and have never had issues with horses. Even my pit bulls from the city are fine with horses. I wonder if this is why he was relinquished by the cowboy?

I’m not sure where you are located, but finding a dog trainer with experience around horses may be difficult. Personally, this would be way above my comfort level to try to fix. I know my limitations. Others may chime in with experience.

It sounds like you guys really provide a great life for your dogs/horses. Don’t feel bad if you have to return this one. I’m sure there are other dogs out there who would enjoy your active lifestyle. I don’t know if I would ever be 100% comfortable around this dog.

Sounds like he is really not suited equine material, he might be a great dog for a non horse person, I would not feel bad returning him. I could not deal with that at all. he will surely hurt a horse or someone riding a horse.
It may not be something that can be trained out. Too bad you cannot get in touch with the cowboy who had him, but I will bet that is why he gave him up.
Good luck, so sorry about you losing your boy, They break your heart and it is hard.

I wouldn’t hesitate a minute in returning him. If one is a horse person, and dogs have to be around horses, the one necessary trait is not to be horse aggressive. A horse aggressive dog can do immense damage to horses, both mentally and physically.

Since he’s a purebred many people will be interested in him. After you can explain about his behavior, the agency will make sure that he doesn’t go to a place where he’s expected to be around horses.

You have my sympathy for losing your perfect dog and to such an awful disease.

NO !

[B]NO !

  • return the dog today ![/B]

Agree with others. Also, it could end badly for him if he messes with the wrong horse that doesn’t take kindly to dogs.

The fact that he went into full attack mode without provocation would be a deal breaker for me.

And if you are right and it is jealousy about you, I would be asking myself who or what the dog will go after next.

My current barn dog was nervous around just about everything in the beginning because he was an older dog with very little life experience (I think the first 5 years of his life were spent on the end of a chain), but he was clear about his fears and was able to work through all of them.

IME it is very rare for a dog to act like this around horses, especially a heeler. Chasing? Nipping? Jumping up at the horses? Sure, but outright growling and lunging, attacking? Not so much. There are plenty of good dogs out there that would be better suited to your lifestyle, so I would rehome this one. However if you’re intent on keeping him, there are a few things you could try. Working on obedience is number 1. A dog that listens to you in every situation is going to be a lot easier to deal with. You can pair that with positive reinforcement training around horses. Reward neutral behavior, ignore negative behavior. You might have to start with the horse completely out of eyesight at first, but it is possible to change the dog’s association with horses this way. An e-collar could also be a good option, but make sure you aren’t abusing it.

I’d return him. What are going to do keep him muzzled 24/7?
Not fair to your horses not fair to him.

What if it is jealousy and you stop to talk to cute little girl and his “feral” nature takes over?
No.

Re-training him is fine, except that you won’t be there every minute to keep him in line, the way you describe what you do.

Since he may be a danger to others, that would definitely be a questionable situation with him.
He already has shown you who he is, believe him.

Can you manage him as tight as he is going to require?
That is the question you have to answer yourself.

It is a heart break to have to make those decisions, so sorry.

There is no way this dog will be 100% reliable around horses. Nothing can be 100%, and one slip could be tragic. Also, I agree if this is a jealousy issue, then anyone around you may be at risk. If something happens to a person, or an animal, you’ll never forgive yourself.

[QUOTE]he’s also very intense and quite feral, almost seems like a wild animal in some ways. i find this a bit unnerving
[/QUOTE]

I did not have to read further

wrong dog wrong situation

this dog may never be right. The breeding to select for the herding behaviors sometimes produces incorrigible dogs

Not sure there is a right home for him and personally I would not make the effort to over ride his basic , bred in nature.

Sorry to say…this is what stock dogs DO!! But he was probably badly started around stock as well. You can “maybe” train him out of the behavior…but it will always be in his character to attack livestock!! Sounds like he needs a non-farm, home. He WILL become a liability!!

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;8447312]
Sorry to say…this is what stock dogs DO!! But he was probably badly started around stock as well. You can “maybe” train him out of the behavior…but it will always be in his character to attack livestock!! Sounds like he needs a non-farm, home. He WILL become a liability!![/QUOTE]

Stock dogs are not supposed to attack and leap onto your horse’s haunches. That’s not a very useful skill in a herding breed. I do agree that he WILL be a liability - he’s definitely not suited for a life around horses; at least not without a lot of supervision and training…and still probably could not be trusted. Not something I would want to undertake with an adult dog of unknown breeding.

thank you for all your replies. you are underscoring my suspicions and worst fears.

this is a heartbreak on top of a heartbreak for us. i am wracking my brain trying to think of how to work with this issue without risking my horse’s well-being or the dog’s. i wouldn’t be surprised if she tried to kill him the next time she sees him. she did not like him on sight. very unusual for her as she’s generally fairly indifferent to dogs. i’m sure his very focused, very intense energy made her uncomfortable. this dog has eyes like gold lasers. and this horse is a very confident cowy horse, she goes after calves like a hellion.

fwiw, i am a very experienced dog trainer, but not experienced enough for something like this. it’s a new situation to me.

i live in montana, where there are lots of heelers and lots of horses, so theoretically i could find a good trainer for this situation. i did call one trainer, but she has not called me back.

the dog is extremely well trained, very responsive, not much for me to improve on in that department, though he doesn’t understand heel yet–he does walk right behind you off leash, follows my every move. he’d be a superb competitive obedience dog, none better. and he’d be incredible at flyball, agility, and rally obedience. super athletic and smart.

he minds me the instant i say something. my worry is my husband. he’s a big softy and the reason our dearly departed dog was such a great fit for him is that was a soft dog. my husband does not understand how to set firm boundaries for dogs (or children, or anyone else for that matter), he’s a very easy-going guy. already the dog is showing him disobedience in small ways, testing the waters to see what he can get away with.

even before this incident with the horse, i was warning my husband that he has to commit to learning how to be firm with the dog or we’ll have a terror on our hands. this also is probably why the dog chose me as his one and only, because i am firm with him.

since we got the dog in part to be a running partner for my husband, his handling of the dog is an important factor. i put a copy of “cesar’s way” on his night stand, but i don’t know that you can change a husband’s disposition any more than you can change a dog’s.

anyway, husband seems resigned to having to give the dog up. i do have the phone number for the cowboy who bought him as a pup, and i think i’ll try giving him a call to see if there is more information.

Your other option is keep the dog, enjoy him but don’t bring him to the barn. Bring him on hikes, walks, other outings. I know your ideal dog does it all including being around horses, following on trail rides etc but imo that is too far a jump for this dog to make, if you love him for himself and want to keep him you can but just know his limitations, he will still need training to be a good citizen.

On the plus side, and of course he should be socialized and trained, he has protective instincts which can come in handy at some point. He is still young and also traumatized from the change.
Best of luck and hope it works out whatever you decide

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8447348]
Your other option is keep the dog, enjoy him but don’t bring him to the barn. Bring him on hikes, walks, other outings. I know your ideal dog does it all including being around horses, following on trail rides etc but imo that is too far a jump for this dog to make, if you love him for himself and want to keep him you can but just know his limitations, he will still need training to be a good citizen.

On the plus side, and of course he should be socialized and trained, he has protective instincts which can come in handy at some point. He is still young and also traumatized from the change.
Best of luck and hope it works out whatever you decide[/QUOTE]

this is just not practical for us. it would mean he’s left alone for extended periods at home, and that when we go on trips with the horse he has to stay in the care of a petsitter. i cannot hike because of health issues. if he can’t go along with a horse, then my husband and i can’t go out onto the trails together unless the dog stays home alone. since the dog needs a ton of attention and exercise, and our recreational time is limited, this does not seem very workable.

he doesn’t seem traumatized from the change. our previous dog took six months to settle in. this dog took a couple of days. i am his sun, moon, and stars. i think he will adapt easily to another home, if the new owner is good with dogs.

[QUOTE=aliceo;8447338]
thank you for all your replies. you are underscoring my suspicions and worst fears.

this is a heartbreak on top of a heartbreak for us. i am wracking my brain trying to think of how to work with this issue without risking my horse’s well-being or the dog’s. i wouldn’t be surprised if she tried to kill him the next time she sees him. she did not like him on sight. very unusual for her as she’s generally fairly indifferent to dogs. i’m sure his very focused, very intense energy made her uncomfortable. this dog has eyes like gold lasers. and this horse is a very confident cowy horse, she goes after calves like a hellion.

fwiw, i am a very experienced dog trainer, but not experienced enough for something like this. it’s a new situation to me.

i live in montana, where there are lots of heelers and lots of horses, so theoretically i could find a good trainer for this situation. i did call one trainer, but she has not called me back.

the dog is extremely well trained, very responsive, not much for me to improve on in that department, though he doesn’t understand heel yet–he does walk right behind you off leash, follows my every move. he’d be a superb competitive obedience dog, none better. and he’d be incredible at flyball, agility, and rally obedience. super athletic and smart.

he minds me the instant i say something. my worry is my husband. he’s a big softy and the reason our dearly departed dog was such a great fit for him is that was a soft dog. my husband does not understand how to set firm boundaries for dogs (or children, or anyone else for that matter), he’s a very easy-going guy. already the dog is showing him disobedience in small ways, testing the waters to see what he can get away with.

even before this incident with the horse, i was warning my husband that he has to commit to learning how to be firm with the dog or we’ll have a terror on our hands. this also is probably why the dog chose me as his one and only, because i am firm with him.

since we got the dog in part to be a running partner for my husband, his handling of the dog is an important factor. i put a copy of “cesar’s way” on his night stand, but i don’t know that you can change a husband’s disposition any more than you can change a dog’s.

anyway, husband seems resigned to having to give the dog up. i do have the phone number for the cowboy who bought him as a pup, and i think i’ll try giving him a call to see if there is more information.[/QUOTE]

I am with your DH on not wanting any animals you have to stand up to, unless you are the designated trainer.
As a personal companion, I don’t want to go there, while to others that comes naturally.

DH may just not be happy with a dog he has to be on top of to keep it under control, no matter how much he may like the dog.

Just doesn’t look like a good fit.

As for Cesar Milan, he is very controversial in dog training circles just because of that, he is too one sided.
To him, all dogs and problems are one sided into the no compromise, come down hard on one and so helps less than he makes some problems worse with some dogs or owners.

If you go the trainer route, which with this dog will still mean a lifetime of very close managing when not under direct control, try to find one that handles well all types of dogs.

In today’s world, that dog may be a huge liability you may consider if you want to take on or not.

He sounds like he’d be a completely perfect dog for someone else.

I think one can train and manage a whole lot, but that expecting a dog whose every instinct tells him to eat horses (or cats, or other dogs, or whatever) to never slip up is unfair to everyone concerned.

I’m sorry. :frowning:

I would send him back. The behavior you describe is very unusual, and if he repeats it, it could result in a very serious accident. Even if you are willing to take the risk for yourself, how would you feel if your dog caused a serious accident or harm to another person or horse? Now that you know the dog has this tendency, you are 100% responsible. I would count your lucky stars that you were made aware of this dog’s issue early on and without permanent harm to anyone.

Yes, you could try to somehow get through to him and train him not to do that, but it isn’t like he just growled at the horse–that sounds like a full blown attack. I don’t know how you could trust him again.

No one wants to take a dog back. But sometimes you just have to make a responsible decision. I’m sorry about the loss of your previous dog.