i am having resistance from my horse getting outside rein contact. I understand the leg to rein and I also drive and trying to move her to outside rein. I’ve been driving her for several years and recently started riding her. She is very resistant to accepting the outside rein. She will start shaking her head. I will add that she has some allergies and a tear duct that clogs regularly so I don’t know if this is adding to the issue. If her hair tickles her ears she is much worse. She also doesn’t seem to like poll pressure. I have had Chiro, teeth, vet, acupuncture and exhausted many avenues.
Last week I had her in a trot in a small circle around me holding the reins and did feel that I got the outside rein in hand and no shaking. So I do think she is just resisting and this is a training issue/ contact issue. Any tips appreciated.
The main thing is if she understands what the outside rein is. If she doesn’t and you don’t know how to teach a being that doesn’t understand english and doesn’t understand why you want it, you will get a confused horse. A confused horse shakes its head, opens its mouth, tosses its head, bucks, bolts, spins and can be taught to rear.
If you dont know how you need an instructor.
[QUOTE=China Doll;n9722947I’ve been driving her for several years and recently started riding her. She is very resistant to accepting the outside rein. She will start shaking her head. [/QUOTE]
I just noticed the above and added this to my response. OK. So, you just started riding her after you drove her for several years. The outside rein is not usually taught immediately when first starting to ride a horse, and is only introduced after the horse succeeds a basics below outside rein. Your horse is going from years of driving to learning how to carry a rider. I wouldn’t be pushing the outside rein issue. She’s trying to figure out being ridden. Aside from years of driving (good for you!), what is your riding experience, IYDMMA?
Hi. If the horse is resisting, this makes me wonder if the weight of the rein is too strong and restrictive? I would also think head shaking in response to outside rein is a contact issue. The the contact on both reins is always elastic and the rein weight of inside rein and outside are about the same on both reins. The outside rein is not strong or heavy. The difference is that the outside rein is consistently stable and supporting, while the inside rein is asking for the bend, while the inside leg gently asks the horse to step over to fill the outside rein. Between the two reins the inside rein has more elasticity and asking to it’s feel compared to the more “stable” outside rein. Neither rein is static or stiff. Neither rein is bouncing about.
It is quite difficult to get a horse to correctly take the outside rein from the ground or while driving because there is no leg to bend around and to gently encourage the horse to take the outside rein. It becomes a handsy situation and the horse might think you want a counter bend. It’s easier to get some outside rein contact if you are doing in hand work or long lining because you can point your body and the whip where a riders leg goes to help the horse take the outside rein. This is usually easy for a rider who knows how to correctly ride inside leg to outside rein to achieve, since they are riding from the ground while long lining. But long lining is an art and just because a person can ride and correctly ride inside leg to outside rein does not mean they can easily long line or get outside rein long lining.
(disclaimer: In my limited experience with driving, I was really surprised at how heavy and constant the contact felt in comparison to riding. It felt really odd to me. JMHO.)
The easiest way to introduce the outside rein is starting with some leg yielding (bend away from direction of travel), spiraling in and out on a circle, and then counter bending on a circle. You can start to introduce counter bend on a circle by starting with a small volte with true bend on a circle, as you close that volte, ask for a volte the other direction (figure 8). As you close the figure 8, take several steps of counter bend on your original circle, go back to true bend.
When ever a horse shakes it’s head in response to a rider’s hand on the reins, confusion of the rider’s aids and too heavy of contact come to mind.
In the saddle. Start with a 20 m circle, using your outside leg, and no inside rein, spiral down to a 10 m circle. Make sure your outside lower leg holds the quarters so that they do not swing wide. They need to follow the track of the forefeet. Once you get to the 10 m circle pulsing your inside leg, with your outside leg maintaining bend, push your horse out to the 20 m circle again. Your outside rein remains soft and giving, but not pulling, you want maintain the head and neck on the bend, but the feel should be in the outside rein, the influence of your inside leg should be pushing tp the outside rein, but your legs maintain bend. Be careful with your weight. It has a great deal to do with maintaining bend.
When driving, the feel of the outside rein against the body, handled skillfully, will maintain the inside bend without pulling the head and neck into counter-bend.
Contact is a funny thing to talk about. People will say “use no inside rein” and one might from this think of having a loose, loopy inside rein when that is not the case. We’ll say “give” and the impression is one of pushing one’s hands forward to create loops in the reins.
One of the best descriptions I have encountered is that the give or no rein is simply the release of tension in the muscles of the arm (fingers to shoulder) without actually moving the hand at all. So “no inside rein” means a quiet, relaxed contact that is asking nothing, is elastic and following the motion. “Give” means releasing the tension in the rider’s arm(s) without dropping the contact.
Another tendency we have is to focus on the wrong thing - in the case of contact we often think we have to get the horse to yield to the inside rein and lighten in order to get him to take the outside. We can get so focused on that yield that we don’t even realize we have dropped the outside rein contact and the inside rein is the only way he can have contact with us. An exercise like riding a figure eight without using rein aids (just holding a quiet, steady, relaxed contact) can help the horse understand as well as helping the rider feel the balance of inside vs outside rein, and stop being so busy with the inside rein.
The loopy inside rein, and loopy reins “testing” for self carriage come later, after the horse has the understanding of taking the contact.
The words you use to describe it may vary. 
Hi. Thank you for posting the video. What a cute horse! I really like that you are a concerned and thinking rider who senses something is very wrong and is looking to get on the right path! The video is very helpful and helps explain what is going on. I’m sorry your horse is so unhappy and irritated with being ridden in the video.
You are right, your contact is very inconsistent. Your contact is very strong, pulling down and fighting the horse. Yes, the saddle has you in a bad position and is why you can’t get into or keep a proper position. You are crouching forward balancing on your hands and I think it might be placing you too far back on your horse’s back. Your body is not aligning where your leg would not normally go, and your body and leg look too far back on your horse’s side.
The photo shows strong rein contact and too short of a neck. IDK if this correct for driving or not. In riding, it’s too short and restricted. The highest point of the neck should be the poll. The way you know the neck is too short in the photo is that the highest point is the middle of the neck, not the poll.
From the videos, there is no way that you are getting anything close to “collection”, nor should you try. I am also not sure how you could be achieving leg yield, shoulder fore, turn on the haunches…if you don’t have any connection, any good contact, and if the saddle puts you the completely wrong position for you to apply the aids for these movements? Those movements are only used after you get a proper position, a consistent connect, consistently good contact, and the horse and rider have the proper basics down to perfection. Doing these movements without the above will only confuse and frustrate the horse.
I’m surprised that the instructor has you trotting and then trying to canter. The horse is so unhappy and you are fighting to stay upright in the saddle. Rule of thumb is if you can’t get it at the walk, can’t get it at the trot, go back to the walk. Don’t canter. Are there other instructors you can go to who have lesson horses so you can learn the basics instead of trying to learn on your green horse? Your horse is very lucky to have a caring and concerned owner like you who is concerned enough to know that resistance and head shaking are caused by something and that you are interested in fixing the problem. :encouragement:
What a cute mare! Watching you ride, where I’d start is to have you ride with a balance rein to help remimd you to keep your hands forward and quiet, while you work on developing your core and posting rhythm. What I see is that you have to do what I call “post her into the contact”. You’d use your core and hips more strongly you post, staying more balanced over her. Drop your weight down your knees more. It can help to count evenly the sit and apex of the rise ONE TWO, ONE TWO, to make sure the two beats are even. Sometimes it helps to think “I’m making this stride 1” loooonger.", with my hips.
Then, from that the inside to outside.
There are a lot of ideas here. I just wanted to add, this is a very difficult thing to teach a horse that takes a long time, especially when you have a background of asking for something else. Additionally, your very cute horse has a massive, short neck that is not making it easy. The head shaking just looks like resistance to wanting to do the work to me.
It will take a long time. When it’s too hard, take a step back. On the video you were trying to get here there on a straight line. That’s too hard. Use a circle. If you can trot, great. If that’s too hard to get the contact, go to a walk.
Give yourself and your horse a break. You’re basically retraining her. This is very hard to do for an experienced rider. You’re both green at this. It’s going to take a long time to get the strength, balance, timing, and aides correct.
I agree it will take a long time.
Just step back and look at your mare. The muscle under the neck is well developed. I am afraid that this is incorrect and shows she has been pulled in.
You are looking for a well developed topline, not a muscled under neck.
You need to start from the beginning. As with everything with horses, little and often. She does not have the muscle to go correctly and she can not go correctly for 4 hours at a time.
Little and often. A good instructor is needed.
I would also suggest doing some concentrated work on your own seat and balance, longe lessons without stirrups or reins on this horse or a schoolie if this horse is too green.
You can’t get proper contact on a horse if your seat is unsteady and your hands are bobbing up and down when you post. Your hands have to be independent of your seat and vice versa.
Originally posted by China Doll View Post
a bit more history and I had a break through today. I had been driving for a few years and a very qualified instructor told me that I was following the bascule too much and so I started to (stiffen up) and then all my problems began. Was this a driving or riding instructor? In riding, stiffening will cause resistance in the horse, as would with driving. Sought out new instructor and got some better results in helping with bending her in opposite direction when I could see her ready to resist. I then take time off for winter and start all over again in spring forgetting some of what I learned. I then had a qualified friend helping me and she said I needed much more contact which i felt didn’t let the horse stretch enough so found a happy medium that was working. Also worked on keeping elbows against my sides. I have attached a picture of when my friend had me take more contact.
Drove yesterday and had many head shaking issues. So today I did lots of flexion both directions, getting her to follow the bit during warm up and counter turning when she started to shake. We had minimal shake so I think it is stemming from not having proper lateral flexion.
I am just back into riding and new to dressage. I went for 5 weeks of lessons with a GP rider. Rode every day but 1. Lessons 4 times a week for (2-3 hours a day). Lessons for 2-3 hours a day? That is much too much for any horse. Lessons should be a max of 1 hour. trainer rode occasionally and had much less shaking but some.
>>>>>>((((((( Horse is green under saddle but we are getting some collection ))))))<<<<<<< A green horse should never have collection. What do you mean by “collection”. See the Training Scale for where collection comes into play. It is not at the beginning. WTC both ways. lots of leg yielding, shoulder fore. Turn on haunches, forehand and on center. I am having trouble getting and keeping proper position. I am having a hard time understanding the give as our contact is not consistent. .posted a video of me riding .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbYWPMIlamE
Hi. Thank you for posting the video. What a cute horse! I really like that you are a concerned and thinking rider who senses something is very wrong and is looking to get on the right path! The video is very helpful and helps explain what is going on. I’m sorry your horse is so unhappy and irritated with being ridden in the video.
You are right, your contact is very inconsistent. Your contact is very strong, pulling down and fighting the horse. Yes, the saddle has you in a bad position and is why you can’t get into or keep a proper position. You are crouching forward balancing on your hands and I think it might be placing you too far back on your horse’s back. Your body is not aligning where your leg would not normally go, and your body and leg look too far back on your horse’s side.
The photo shows strong rein contact and too short of a neck. IDK if this correct for driving or not. In riding, it’s too short and restricted. The highest point of the neck should be the poll. The way you know the neck is too short in the photo is that the highest point is the middle of the neck, not the poll.
From the videos, there is no way that you are getting anything close to “collection”, nor should you try. I am also not sure how you could be achieving leg yield, shoulder fore, turn on the haunches…if you don’t have any connection, any good contact, and if the saddle puts you the completely wrong position for you to apply the aids for these movements? Those movements are only used after you get a proper position, a consistent connect, consistently good contact, and the horse and rider have the proper basics down to perfection. Doing these movements without the above will only confuse and frustrate the horse.
I’m surprised that the instructor has you trotting and then trying to canter. The horse is so unhappy and you are fighting to stay upright in the saddle. Rule of thumb is if you can’t get it at the walk, can’t get it at the trot, go back to the walk. Don’t canter. Are there other instructors you can go to who have lesson horses so you can learn the basics instead of trying to learn on your green horse? Your horse is very lucky to have a caring and concerned owner like you who is concerned enough to know that resistance and head shaking are caused by something and that you are interested in fixing the problem. :encouragement: there is a lot of info and will go over it all several times and study. The original instructors were driving when the head shaking started. When I say collection she is really slowing down in her canter and feeling balanced and I can sit the canter. In driving she is sometimes offering to Piaffe in the down transition and the slow trot she is using her rear end more. Sometimes in the extended trot she will lift her withers and drop her haunches. May not be the correct definition but seeing improvement.
The western saddle does put me in a chair seat, I was riding in a dressage saddle but was not confident at the canter. Now that her canter is much more balanced i will start using my dressage saddle.
I sometimes have good position, connection and contact just not continually. I also felt like the reins were to short but I am not the professional. Now that I am home I ride with a longer rein.
I also want to ad that she shakes when being led in a halter, lunged in a caveson with no bit, with or with out side reins.
You might want a vet opinion on the head shaking, including looking in her ears. Does she do it in her stall or pasture?
It’s entirely possible for a horse to have good balance and collect, passage, extend, at liberty or in harness, and not be anywhere ready or able to do it under saddle. Totally changes their balance. For instance almost all horses can do a nice sliding stop playing in turnout, but it’s still a process to teach most of them under saddle.
Problem compounded when rider is unbalanced.
What I see in video is horse fighting inconsistent and jabby contact from a rider who doesn’t yet have a secure seat. The head tossing may be a larger issue but the riding is such that it’s not going to fix it, and in another horse could well cause it.
Fix your seat and hands, and dial back your expectations of what horse should be able to do. Lots of stretchy trot on a long rein. She is green under saddle and needs to be brought along slowly.
she does not shake in stall or in turnout. She seems to not like stuff by her poll or tickling her ears though her ears are not sensitive when touching or clipping. I got a new crown that was contoured, padded and covered more poll that she really was shaking so went back to simple bridle.
The saddle seemed to move alot and I was always readjusting. I’ve gotten a different pad that makes the saddle more stable also. I also noticed the flex tree wasnt at a good angle when I tightened girth and this pad has built in panels that keep the tree from flexing into the horse.
Usually, problems begin when the rider is bending the horses neck to the inside. Contact and proper “inside bend” in general looks like the horse’s head/neck is either straight, or slightly bent outside. If the head is flexed inside, the horse will fall onto the outside shoulder, which is definitely not where you want them. “Think” about bending slightly to the outside, and limiting that flexion with the inside rein, so the horse is straight, and does not fall to the outside.
From the vid, I would say looser/longer reins and let her go quite a bit more forward. Really what you need is to get her to loosen and lift her back and contact will come naturally.
At the moment I would work on your school shapes (spirals, loops, serpentines etc) on a long rein, with a focus on rhythm and relaxation (of both you and horse!) and controlling with just your seat and legs. You want her to lower her neck from the base which will come even just with loopy reins.
To address the original question, the contact into the outside rein comes from stepping forward and through from the hind legs, particularly the inside hind (inside hind to outside rein). This is a horse who is very much on the forehand, which is entirely typical of a driving horse. It will not be easy for her to transition to the completely different balance of dressage, but you will do yourself a huge favor if you stop driving for a while until the new balance is well established. Then plan on taking months to get her pushing more from behind before trying to channel it into contact with the outside hand which will come together with bend.
From the video:
You and the horse are not ready to start addressing the contact.
Your seat is very tight and stiff and not ready to act like an absorbent pace regulator. When she gets quick, your instinct is to grab and pull downward. Instead, your seat should be softly regulating the pace. If she gets quicker than your seat, your rein should her back under your seat AND THEN LET GO to see if she stays there on her own. The seat must control the pace. If the hand is busy tamping down the pace, you can’t do anything else with it.
If the seat controls the pace, you are riding from back to front: 99% of the ride is happening under your butt, behind the reins.
If your reins are tamping down the pace all the time, 99% of the ride is happening on your hand, and your are spending your time bringing the horse backwards to you. That is front to back riding. (And also why i go bananas when the standard training answer offered by internet experts is “Add more leg!!”)
This is why rhythm comes first on the training scale. The steps should sound like a metronome first and foremost, and this should happen on a loose rein, regulated by the seat.
First teach her to do downward transitions off your seat, and then you can regulate the rhythm from your seat.
Your horse wants to run and get quick so I would work on going sloooowww, freely but slowly, trying to tale the longest, slowest steps you can.
See how this is all focused on her FEET, not her face?
That is riding back to front.
Your instructor is telling you “hands forward” all the time because he wants you to stop depending on your hands for pace control.
THEN he will start talking to you about contact.
Thanks every one as soon as the weather straightens out I have lots to think about and work on.
Thank you for this post. I had had an accident on another horse and have just gotten over the fear of riding again. This reminds me I need to trust this horse and not clamp up. The other horse was over reactive so I get a bit scared sometimes when forward.
