overbitting your horse

[Karosel]

I took my mare hunting for the first time today. We did ok. She normally goes in a eggbutt frenchlink with a flash. For the hunt I had her in a kimberwicke with a low port and no flash. We did have brakes but I had to pull quite hard and do a few pulley reins a few times. Of course she was tossing her head and inverting her head and fighting with me at the stops. I just walked her in a circle.

For next time I would like to try something different. I think she really didn’t like the action of the curb chain, which caused her to raise her head. The port probabaly contributed to the raised head as well. I think we need more bit than a snaffle, but perhaps a different type of “bite” than a curb chain.

What else would you reccommend for more control, but that’s not a curb? Maybe an elevator with a running martingale or standing martingale, and a flash? I’ll be honest my bitting knowledge doesn’t extend much beyond snaffles since that is what I’ve always used. But it’s much easier to stop a galloping horse on your own than with several others with you.

I think I may have not so much as overbitted my horse, but perhaps “wrongbitted” my horse.

I would like to mention, that of course this was not the first time she went in a kimberwicke. We attended a hunterpace (where she behaved fantastically) a few weeks ago with the kimberwick and did some hacking and she was great in it. However, I didn’t have to “pull” on her so much or at all at the hunterpace. It’s hard to replicate the hunt setting to determine which bit and/or martingale combo may work.

thanks for your help!

ETA: I think I may have got on my horse too early this morning as well. We were supposed to be mounted for 10:45 and starting the hunt at 11, I got on at 10:30 to do a short walk warm up and get her accustomed to the sights and sounds. Well we didn’t end up starting the hunt until close to 11:30. By then mare was anxious, impatient and getting worked up. Next time I’ll wait to mount.

[kcmel]

I love my elevator bit! I have a two-ring; my guy goes very well in it and is very responsive. I also use a flash and a standing martingale.

[SLW]

Today I took my mare down a bit- she is new to hunting and has been in a wide, single twisted, full cheek snaffle. Today I used my french link, two ring gag. That is a nice bit that lets you have contact without punishing the horse. If you have enough “whoa” I would skip the running martingale and try a standing martingale.

[Foxtrot_s]

I know people do it, but hunting with a standing is supposed to be a ‘no-no’ in case they need to find a fifth leg.

I put my TB in a kimberwick and it was the most wrong bit ever - she just got mad.
Mostly in the past I used a gag on one horse. One strong reef on it and then could slip along quietly the whole day because he knew I had him.

If your horse runs with his nose out (as opposed to overbending) I used to hunt a horse in a kineton noseband and she was easy in that.

I have found that a snaffle with its pinching action can upset horses with the thin jaws especially in the excitement when there is some pulling going on. I do like the double jointed. Less is definitely more on some horses - and you come home less worn out.

[Bogie]

If your horse was fine in the Kimberwicke before then it might not have been the bit, it might have been the excitement of hunting.

It could just be that she didn’t like standing at the checks. I think that’s the hardest thing for a horse to get used to – standing still after all that galloping. For my own horse two things helped: I kept treats in my pocket and rewarded him for standing (I taught him this while out hacking, not hunting) and we went on a really, really long hunt. After that hunt he had a light bulb moment and decided that the check was a great time to chill.

Back to the bits – did you change the tension of the curb chain? Some horses get fussy if it’s too tight. However, if you didn’t have brakes you might need something that catches her attention in a different way.

My own horse does fine in a Kimberwicke or a Pelham but he doesn’t mind the curb. He hates an elevator and a traditional gag can be too much bit – so what you have to see is what type of bit she responds to best.

I also like hunting in a Waterford as it keeps my horse from leaning on the bit but it doesn’t back him off.

You could also try adding a running martingale. I almost always hunt in one as I find it gives me a tad more leverage without going to a harsher bit.

I know someone who has had great success with a Mikmar short shank – it has a leather curb strap and that’s enough for the horse. She respects it but doesn’t curl up behind it.

[paulmiller]

I too have a horse and had a similar kind of experience with him some time back. But now everything is going smoothly.

[whicker]

strategy

What group did you go with? If there is a hilltopping group, that’s where you want to be to introduce your horse to hunting. Find who the pros are who are making green hunters, and ride with the green horse brigade. They support each other in managing the amount of stimulation. Expect that the green horse is going to be quite up. The other horses are telling him that there is going to be running in a herd, which is quite a party.

Walk in circles and figure 8’s at the checks. Use lateral work to get your horse’s attention back on you. Dressage can really help with keeping the horse in balance. Many of the “run-away” moments come from lack of balance, and tipping on the forehand. You can canter up the hills, using the hill to put the horse on his hindend for balance, use half halts and halts just before the top of the hill to package the balance, then trot down the hill.

If your horse is still over stimulated after several hunts, you might consider adding a vitamin B1 calmative supplement to help his brain process the information more easily. B vitamins do wonders for both man and beast.:winkgrin:

Please feel free to p.m. me for more mentoring. I’m riding greenies, too. I wrote a book, Intermediate Riding Skills, that has a large section on hunting. The book is out of print, but available on Amazon, with a 4 star rating. (I don’t get anything from the sale of the book, by the way)

Robin Hirst

[Karosel]

I know people do it, but hunting with a standing is supposed to be a ‘no-no’ in case they need to find a fifth leg.

That is my concern too. I like a horse to have full use of their head and neck if they need to, but I also don’t like having a horse flip their head into my face.

Back to the bits – did you change the tension of the curb chain?

No I didn’t.

It could just be that she didn’t like standing at the checks.

No she didn’t. And if it was just silliness at the checks I would have just dealt with it over time, but it’s the barely having brakes during the canter and trots. And her inverting while cantering, she doesn’t normally do that, even when worked up. I think it was the curb chain.

What group did you go with? If there is a hilltopping group, that’s where you want to be to introduce your horse to hunting.

We went with the second field. I was told it would be mostly walk/trot and a bit of cantering. So I thought I would try her there and drop back to the hilltopping group if necessary. Well, I don’t think there was a hilltopping group or they ended up joining us in the second field. The second field ended up cantering most of the time between checks, but I think that was mainly because this was the first time this hunt had hunted at this location and the fieldmaster needed to be able to keep within sight of the first field as she didn’t know her way around yet. Everyone was ok with the cantering, me as well. My mare was being strong, but she was actually fighting me less while cantering than while walking/trotting. I was able to keep her behind the field master, but I had to ride more defensive/uglier than I wanted to.

I think I may try the elevator first without a martingale, as I think the action of the curb and port were causing her to lift her head and invert. Perhaps I can try her in a standing martingale attachment at home, and bring it with me to the next hunt. And if I find she needs it I can attach to her breastplate at a check.

[SmartAlex]

@Karosel;5871914

She normally goes in a eggbutt frenchlink with a flash. For the hunt I had her in a kimberwicke with a low port and no flash.

<Snip>

Of course she was tossing her head and inverting her head and fighting with me at the stops.

<Snip>

I think she really didn’t like the action of the curb chain, which caused her to raise her head. The port probabaly contributed to the raised head as well.

Is your mare used to a kimberwicke in a non stressful situation, or did you spring it on her that morning? If she is not familiar with the kimberwick, then I would expect every bit of her reaction and more.

[Karosel]

Smartalex,

I said in my first post she’s had the bit in during hacks and during a hunterpace, so she was familar with the bit.

[SmartAlex]

Now I see it. Read three times but not for comprehension.

I was just thinking if I did that to my horse (curb chain non jointed) I’d be dead. He is used to a snaffle and will go in a curb at home if you are really on your game, but I wouldn’t take him hunting that way.

What I think I would do in your case is just step up from what already works into an elevator. My spring/fall/windy bit is a loose ring elevator and I ride with 4 reins so I can back off if I need to.

Or at least wrap the chain of the kimberwicke in latex.

[Karosel]

What I think I would do in your case is just step up from what already works into an elevator.

I think that is what I’ll do. Does anyone know if an elevator comes in a frenchlink mouthpiece? Miss mare doesn’t like the nutcracker action of a regular snaffle.

ETA: I did a quick google search and answered my own question. Yes, there are frenchlink elevators available.

[jawa]

Take your pick:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=french+link+elevator+bit&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=french+link+elevator+bit&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=shop&ei=dOyJTpzHLYHG0AGJo-DPDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=6&ved=0CCMQ_AUoBQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=df72f5a72f1b39f9&biw=1454&bih=993

[Bogie]

@Karosel;5872759

I think I may try the elevator first without a martingale, as I think the action of the curb and port were causing her to lift her head and invert. Perhaps I can try her in a standing martingale attachment at home, and bring it with me to the next hunt. And if I find she needs it I can attach to her breastplate at a check.

I prefer a running to a standing. If you are riding with a snaffle rein, just make sure you attach the rings to that so you don’t always put pressure on the elevator bit.

It’s really whatever works for your horse and sometimes it takes some trial and error. unfortunately, it can also change over time.

I hunted my horse in a loose ring snaffle for two seasons until he decided that he could just lean on the bit and gallop. I upgraded him to a Kimberwicke, which is pretty good but not all that subtle. I now ride either in a waterford snaffle or a Pelham depending on how he feels the days before a hunt.

[Painted_Wings]

I certainly go up in bits for hunting but I do have a couple that go in their normal hacking out bit. Here are my two cents:

I always hunt in a standing martingale. Keeps me from getting hit in the face and keeps them from throwing their head up to evade the bit. It is adjusted fairly loose though. Most of my horses don’t need it most of the time.

There are several threads here on the running vs. standing argument. Feel free to read any of them. My major argument for the standing vs. the running is that your horse can be ponied if needed with a standing and also I think you can steer better with a standing. Some people also say that branches can get caught in the rings, I’ve never seen that personally.

So the horses that do get bitted up that normally go in a snaffle, one goes in a two ring with a french link mouth and the other goes in a Stubben Golden wings gag bit that is very similar to a Wonder bit.

Here is the Stubben bit

http://www.stubbennorthamerica.com/stu2260Bit.html

Here is the two ring I use

http://www.smartpakequine.com/herm-sprenger-kk-ultra-aurigan-show-jumping-bit-7103p.aspx?cm_vc=Search

Here is the third bit I use which is a Myler snaffle with hooks that give a little more leverage, almost like a wonder bit

http://www.adamshorsesupply.com/browse.cfm/myler-comfort-dee-w-hooks-copper-roller-and-inlay-mouth/4,7929.html

The best thing you can do is find a friend with a lot of bits and try them. I hunted Saturday with a friend that was hunting in Boucher which it turned out I had forgotten I loaned her until she reminded me.

[WildBlue]

I have a three-ring french link that I’ve used successfully on a couple different horses that normally go in an eggbut french link. Like SmartAlex, I use two pairs of reins so we can do as much as rating and balancing as possible with the snaffle rein and only employ the ‘air brakes’ when necessary.

My guy came into hunting with a lot of other experience, and we’ve still had a lot of ‘ugly riding’ moments. For now, he’s allowed to wave his nose all over the place (which is a great stress-reliever for him) while we work on being calm and obedient in the places that count: maintaining proper spacing in the field (and especially not charging up the butt of the horse ahead of him), moving aside to make way, behaving at checks, showing no aggression to other horses or the hounds, etc. I’m sure we’ll present a prettier picture once he wraps his brain around his new job and relaxes a bit.

[Fillabeana]

We did have brakes but I had to pull quite hard and do a few pulley reins a few times.

I think that from your description of having to use a pulley rein, you are going to need some leverage.

Of course she was tossing her head and inverting her head and fighting with me at the stops.

It sounds to me like your mare was having trouble with the curb chain when you were at the checks-THAT is where she was over-bitted. A kimberwicke does not give you the chance to use a snaffle only (unless you use two reins, which is not how a kimberwicke is designed to be used).

So, my suggestion is for a pelham. Use a leather curb strap or wrap the chain, but it sounds to me like you needed the curb rein hunting, just not at the checks where you couldn’t NOT use the curb.

If you try the pelham and find that your mare REALLY does not like the curb, you could use a running martingale, combined with an elevator. Use two reins, run the snaffle-only rein through the martingale rings.

[Karosel]

Here is the third bit I use which is a Myler snaffle with hooks that give a little more leverage, almost like a wonder bit

It’s interesting you mention this type of bit. At the lunch/breakfast afterwards the fieldmaster suggested a Myler MB 02 bit http://www.bahrsaddlery.com/sb-products.asp?productid=1510&category=154
as it can be used several different ways and horses can’t lean on it easily.

Fillabeana, I have tried a pelham on her with two reins and she didn’t like it at all, even when just using the snaffle rein. I think it could have been the amount of hardware/reins around her muzzle that she didn’t like. If that makes sense. She’s a trakehner and has tendency to be sensitive, but not hot. Perhaps I could try again with the curb chain wrapped.

She was also inverting during the trots and canters too, not just at the checks.

FWIW the fieldmaster said that she thought my mare did well. Perhaps she was being nice, but she also mentioned that she thinks it takes about 5-6 hunts to determine if a horse is going “get” hunting or not. And she invited us to the hunt she is hosting at her farm. So we couldn’t have been that bad :lol: right?!

My mare didn’t display any ‘nasty’ behaviour, and never has. No hint of rearing, bucking, or purposely trying to throw her face up to hit me in the face (well not yet anyway). No spinning either. She was just impatient, jigging around and pawing. At one check she did stand quietly, which was nice. And she got a pat. I wish had some mints with me. She doesn’t chew them- she sucks on them! If that would make her stand I’ll bring a whole bag with me. :lol:
She is fantastic when in close proximity to other horses - not so much as putting an ear back at another horse. And she was great around the hounds. It probably helped that I’ve trail ridden her with my cattle dog thisclose to her heels. and the SO throwing frisbee around for the dog while I’m riding. So perhaps there is hope for my mare being a polite hunt horse yet?

[jawa]

:lol:Patience is a VIRTUE!:lol:

Is your mare patient at home? Trot 10 minutes then stop and stand on a loose rein? Gallop 2-3 minutes then stop and stand on a loose rein?

If she isn’t practiced at being patient at home, it’s hard to expect it with the excitement of the hunt field.

I would start in the ring with some trot/canter work then just stand around for as long as you can…count the secs as they go by and use that as a base line. Then try to add to that with training. Have a plan of what you can do if she moves her feet before you ask her to move them. Ideally it would be something you can do in the hunt field at a check…Turn on forehand, turn on haunches, side pass…flexions…Something that she would rather not do, but can do.

If her only real issue is antsy-ness at checks, she should be great.

[Karosel]

Is your mare patient at home? Trot 10 minutes then stop and stand on a loose rein? Gallop 2-3 minutes then stop and stand on a loose rein?

While I’ve never practised this, yes she is patient at home. At the hunterpace we went to a few weeks ago, she stood like an angel at the check where we were served refreshment. I’ll practice going for a gallop and then having her stand a loose rein.

There is a ‘learn to hunt’ clinic this coming weekend. It’s held in an open grassy field. I think I may take her to that.