Overly Motivated Harness Horse

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=jerry;3266592]
A horse jumping out into intersections IS dangerous. Yet putting 20 hard miles on him doesn’t really address his intersection problem specifically. If he isn’t tired that day, WILL he stop and stand for me? Maybe, or maybe NOT!! He is still not TRAINED to stand, with dependability.

So, you read little or nothing of what I said, you just like to argue. I said every day, for as long as it takes. Since you won’t make your pretty pony behave in this fashion, you are not qualified to judge me. And now that he is right in the head, he stands quietly anywhere, intersection of not. That’s all I ask, and it’s what I get. Do whatever you like.[/QUOTE]

You didn’t read my remarks, just that I don’t agree with distance being the best method.

I guess from your writing you have lots of area to work him tired. Must be nice to have miles on him before the intersections where he might need to stop and stand.

For me, there are MANY intersections, often close together, before I can possibly get him staggering tired, daily, for however many days it takes to BREAK him of this behaviour. May break him physically BEFORE I can make him behave with this distance method. Distance exhaustion is not a good choice here, since I can’t depend on him to wait at all those intersections before he is tired out.

I HAVE done that method before, AM qualified to judge the success or benefits against damaging my horse, in using such methods.

I pointed out optional methods. Roughing up the horse doesn’t PROVE what a great trainer you are, how “western” you can be. Just shows you unwilling to try alternatives that might take out-thinking the horse, work on your part. Not much work just sitting there, aiming horse “down the road” for multiple miles. I was and would be ashamed to be handling a staggering, leg-weary horse, driven to exhaustion. We do call that Amish training around here, because 40 miles is nothing for them to use a horse. They do take them down the road like this, call it training. Amish-broke is not a compliment, and the horse legs show the damage. Horse does stand at intersections though, most of the time.

I do take out my “pretty horses” to put the milage on them, and 20 miles is not a huge amount to the fit animal, ridden or driven. They come in bright-eyed, ears up, when we finish. No damage done to them. Maybe it is easier to use horses you actually LIKE!

Original poster can do as she chooses, but she needed to know that driving horse to exhaustion, no matter if once or for many days, could have permanent, negative consequences on the animal. Her choice now.

Yeah, I’ll argue to prevent someone having less than complete information in making a training choice. Distance work has it’s place, but user needs to have all the method’s sides to doing it, in making an informed choice.

[jerry]

“We fought with him for a couple years over this,”

We had already exhausted the nicey-nice. A couple of years and ready to get rid of him was more than enough of “alternative” methods. And yes, I do have room. If not, I wouldn’t own a horse at all.

[Thomas_1]

Driving a horse for miles isn’t necessarily training it.

A tired horse isn’t a trained horse.

From the OP’s posting, I’m wondering if he/she is inadvertently giving incorrect (too much) rein command when the horse is asked to stop. (doing it under saddle and driven).

I want to know precisely what the OP does to ask the horse to stop and stand. Short video clip under long rein, saddle or driven would assist for better advice.

I’ve also used the technique described by Lost Farmer and with driving and riding horses. BUT to employ that you have to be 110% confident about what you’re doing and in a relatively safe environment and more impotantly, be 200% certain you’re not (unintentionally) asking the horse to go back in the first place.

IME most often this problem is often blamed on the horse when its in fact driver error. Consider VERY carefully what you’re doing with your hands. When you stop are you still hanging on to the reins rather than releasing them.

I’d suggest you go back to long reining with someone walking close by the horse’s head and asking for stand and ensuring you release the contact and keep stopping and starting and gradually increasing the duration of the stand until your horse has learnt and you’re confident you can actually release the reins at junctions.

2nd cause is a badly balanced vehicle and putting the brake on as if a car to try to slow down the horse. That will hurt his mouth and make him go back into the britching. Check the britching fitting too. If this is wrong you’ll never get it sorted when you go back to the vehicle after training under long reins.

[Tamara_in_TN]

@Thomas_1;3268903

From the OP’s posting, I’m wondering if he/she is inadvertently giving incorrect (too much) rein command when the horse is asked to stop. (doing it under saddle and driven).

I’ve also used the technique described by Lost Farmer and with driving and riding horses. BUT to employ that you have to be 110% confident about what you’re doing and in a relatively safe environment and more impotantly, be 200% certain you’re not (unintentionally) asking the horse to go back in the first place.

very good point Mr Thomas! I see a LOT of that in people who have riding horses who have been trained for the western world (and the rider has not been trained thusly)....too much of the power brakes and the whole party goes in reverse ;)

  best from Tennessee to you !

[jerry]

A tired horse isn’t a trained horse. ?? OK, Thomas, I get him out, fresh, and he stands perfectly at intersections or anywhere else, and you call that untrained because it wasn’t done Your way. I call him trained to stand, period.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=jerry;3269544]
A tired horse isn’t a trained horse. ?? OK, Thomas, I get him out, fresh, and he stands perfectly at intersections or anywhere else, and you call that untrained because it wasn’t done Your way. I call him trained to stand, period.[/QUOTE] My comment wasn’t aimed at your horse. I know nothing about your horse.

Rather it was your suggestion that the way to sort out such a problem is by flogging a horse until its too tired to do anything other than stand and until its legs wear out.

Now IMO that’s got nothing at all to do with training a horse and if that’s how you’ve got your horse so he stands, then IMO you didn’t train him, you merely nackered him and broke his spirit.

[jerry]

I didn’t flog him at all. We quit when he stood still, pointed home, on his own. He decided how worn out that needed. When he stood, we quit. Every time.

[QuzqosMa]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3268903]

From the OP’s posting, I’m wondering if he/she is inadvertently giving incorrect (too much) rein command when the horse is asked to stop. (doing it under saddle and driven). /QUOTE]

That may have been the problem, especially since this problem happens when the horse is in a heightened “go” mode, such as first leaving the barn, or when he knows we’ve turned around and are heading home. I want to make sure he does stop, and perhaps I don’t give as much rein release as I should to go forward. Because when you think about it, if the horse WANTS to go forward, why would he go backwards?

Haven’t driven since last weekend, but I’ve been riding quite a bit, and have taken the opportunity to insert random stops-and-waits in areas where I could expect some antics (at the gate out of the arena, the gate out of the barn, on the trail heading home), and he’s being very good about it. We had a little go-round yesterday on the trail heading home, but in the end he stood still and waited in the middle of a dirt road with 30 mph wind gusts until I said it was okay to go forward (in a bitless bridle yet)

I plan to drive tomorrow, so I’ll update you all. And I was just joking about hitching him up to the manure spreader…though it would save the BO some diesel. :lol:

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=QuzqosMa;3249142]
I’ve been driving my 10 yr old Arabian gelding for little over a year now, and he’s doing super…except (there’s always an “except”)…when we stop at intersections or exiting driveways, he’s so impatient to keep moving, that he’ll either start to rear, back up, or try to turn sideways, anything BUT stand still. I suspect some of it’s excess energy and frustration, and for the record, he pulls this same sort of thing under saddle. Sometimes I have trouble getting him to move forward after this, he’d rather continue to back up (almost backed me into a lilac bush this past weekend), or turn around to go back the way we came. If voice commands fail, and reins on the rump don’t do it, I will apply the whip to cut through the mental fog he’d wrapped himself in, and then he’ll go forward.

Any ideas or clues on how to work on him to stand quietly and wait until he’s told to move forward without the drama queen display?

Last night I ground drove him up and down the road, stopping in the driveway, or along the roadside (making sure no traffic was approaching), and he did put up some pretty dramatic displays, but after a while he did settle down and waited patiently for the next cue.

I drive in a two wheeled cart (thankfully, otherwise his antics would have resulted in a much more dramatic story, lol), and had switched from a half-cheek snaffle to a kimberwicke recently to ensure he halted at those intersections (but he was doing this stuff with both kinds of bits)

Thanking you in advance, wise CotH-ers![/QUOTE]

um - i would go back to basics - and for get the driving for a spell and concentrate on getting him to stand still which i hasnt to add is a basic training skill which should have been taught to him

there is of course different ways you can do this, one i like with a horse that wont stand is not to make him feel pressured by anything, since you have had him a year
and not worked on the basic command of standing still will have its effects in anything you do with the horse in any stage of obediance needed.

so-- get your horse and start of by bonding with him, when you lead him out of the stable
attach a long rein to him, and loop it through the ring or rope of where you attach him when you are grooming him,
then keep the lenght in one hand, so as the horse moves you move but you havent lose control of the horse at any time

so for exsample-- horse move back away from the hitch rail – you have the lenght for him to move backwards you say nothing to the horse but wait until he stops moving once stop
move the horse forwards to where he should – say stand up, say good boy and use your tones of voice and then instantly groom again— grooming a horse bonds you with the horse but you can use the brush as a reward and a nice thing to have done to him , the horse will eventually associated it with something nice and will stand up with out to much bother after a couple attempts of not standing still…

be aware tones of voice have an effect on a horse and so do your vibes if you hurry or are hesistant or furious, or cant do attitude then hrose will pick up on those doubts and vibes

ie-- hesitance – creates a doubt- a doubt in a horses mind is one of fear
confusion creates a doubt, lack of confidence creates a doubt, etc

now being that the fear factor of a horse is one to flee, and think afterwards if restricted however its then down to one of advasion, or one of i wana get out of here
ie backing up, bolt. rear or otherwise.

in your case more like you have panic attacks as you know the horse wont stand still
in turn the horse can sense that so it doesnt, change your thinking in not to hurry up
and be calmer the horse looks to you for confidence and guidance
giving a vibe off - as in a hurry ie got an intersection i hope i hope hes stands stills for me etc etc
is lack of confidence and giving a huge vibe as unsure, if ridden probably do the same thing so horse panics at these points and places

so the horse antispates you and does exactly that–

seen as you have had him a year-- he caught your vibe,
had you ignored the intersection or places that concern you way back when you got him
the horse would have ignored them to and stood still and not panicked

now its become a vice - as uncontrolable and the horse has to be re-trained

then you must also be re trained in your thinking - and what vibes and signals you are sending to the horse
we in uk ride on the roads as a matter of course to get to a - or b, so traffic is a top thing over here, and you hae to be aware but also confident, plus ignorant, by that i mean ignore the traffic so it comes through to the horse as a nothing and hes not to be afraid
of it …

flogging whipping etc,isnt an ideal way to win a horse over, how you do that is placing in his mind its a good idea to xyz.

never used treats as they only rewards a bad behaviour, but cuddles and pats are prazes and the horse understands them more so

if he was mine-- i would without a doubt ride him to those places that upset and ride him thorught it, different rider i bet he wont panic as i have no fear so he would have no fear
and stand still

question do you drive the same route-- or do you have to go the same route wwith intersections to get anywhere

plus will add wheres the groom or passenger to get hold of the horses heead if need be or are you driving alone

i would aslo surgest you find a decent driving trianer as i also think that perhaps you havent quite mastere the art of long linging- driving as tend to use his rump in both cases of riding or driving
mate- a horse will tip up – ie rear buck bolt – if to much on the arse

have you ever heard the saying ask politely and you shall get

if you ask a horse any horse to any thing in a correct polite manner then you shall get a good response

as with people - its called respect

[twofatponies]

[QUOTE=QuzqosMa;3261880]
This weekend I applied the wise advice from this thread to my boy, helped by lunging him beforehand. I just ground-drove him in full harness (minus the breastcollar/tugs, didn’t need those), with particular emphasis on the driveways approaching the road. He tossed one minor hissy when I first picked up the reins (which is usual), and we ended up sideways up a hill, yikes! That didn’t work out!

Later in the driveway we were halted as a car whizzed by…soon as it passed, he started walking off (well, the car’s gone, time to get moving!). When I halted him, he started backing up, half-reared, and began trying to turn around. Okay, you want to go that way, you can go that way! I pretty much long-reined him in a tight circle 'round and 'round and 'round and 'round and then 'round some more, ending back in the direction I wanted him in. He behaved for about half an hour…more walking up and down the road, halting, standing, cars going by, no problem.

He tried his trick two more times, and both times he found himself being long-reined/lunged in a tight circle, and was unhappy about it (good!), only to be “rewarded” with a nice quiet stand-still at the end of the drive. I don’t know how much of it sunk in, but towards the end of the session, when I said “whoa” he said “how long!”, lol!

And I was careful to NOT apply the reins to his butt, using my voice, and if that failed, a tap of the whip. He was working completely off my voice for moving forward by the end.

Think I’ll do another ground-driving, repeating all these lessons, before hitching him up again. Thanks again for the help![/QUOTE]

I think it helps, too, to make sure the halt/stand is enforced in all other places in his life - no fidgeting when tied, or when being tacked up, no walking off at the mounting block when ridden. Standing around and waiting for all sorts of random reasons. And never head out right away. Get in , fix your clothes, check your watch, chat with a friend, then go. That way he’ll learn that he can’t decide when it’s time to go.

I might add, my mare was terrible about this when I got her. She’d been an Amish horse, and was used to someone getting in the cart, giving her a whack and off they’d go at 20 miles and hour. I practiced the halting and standing on the ground and in the saddle for months, and she finally realized standing around is a pleasure to be enjoyed.

[QuzqosMa]

[QUOTE=twofatponies;3290670]
I think it helps, too, to make sure the halt/stand is enforced in all other places in his life - no fidgeting when tied, or when being tacked up, no walking off at the mounting block when ridden. [/QUOTE]

Yes indeed. In fact, I’d been working on his “walking off at the mounting block” since February when he took off before I had my leg over his back (I ended up falling off the other side smack on my butt and had a bruise the size of a dinner plate to show for it). As it is now, he will stand perfectly still, allow me to mount, and then we sit and admire the scenery for a minute or two before heading on. :yes:

[QuzqosMa]

Update! (long-winded, sorry)

Getting better, thanks to the wise advice found here!

Beautiful day (mostly), light breeze, horse had a good galloping trail ride yesterday, today he got round-penned to get the P&V out. Harnessed him up, and ground-drove him around the property.

The horse pulled his stunt as soon as we left the indoor arena…I halted him, and refused to stand still, started backing and trying to turn to the left. He got himself circled around and around to the left and only stopped when I told him to, facing our original direction. We stood for another minute, and he was just a’swishing his tail and stomping and pawing, carrying on but NOT moving from his place. The flies were horrible (yes, I had fly spray on him, but I apparently missed a few spots) but he stood his ground.

We walked around the yard and driveway, stopped at the road, and stood there for a few minutes. Cars went by, and he didn’t make a move towards the road when they passed (remember, previously he’d start moving off as soon as the car went by, because that’s what we always did!). Well, it started to rain, despite the sun shining…and then it started to rain a little harder. And then it began to POUR! Where THAT came from, I don’t know, but we made our way quickly back to the indoor arena and into the stall area to wait out the rain. Rain on a metal roof is bad enough, but then it began to HAIL…poor horse about had a heart attack, bad enough wearing blinkers, but to have that deafening racket as well!

I resigned myself to the fact we couldn’t drive outside after all, and when the noise let up, another boarder helped me hitch him up to his cart in the indoor arena, and I got in, and sat there. He stood quietly, not unusual for indoors. Of course within the minute the rain stopped, the skies parted and the sun came out with blue sky as far as the eye could see! Arrgh!

Slowly I drove him towards the open gate, and stopped. He stood fine. We exited the gate to the outdoors, the spot of his previous hissy. Stopped, and stood. The flies came back, and he was stomping and tail-swishing and head-tossing, but didn’t budge from the spot until my say-so.

We went down the road a mile or so onto a side road, and I kept stopping him at random times, just sitting there, admiring the birds or the gardens, we were far enough from the barn that the flies weren’t harassing the horse, so he relaxed too. Went maybe a mile down that road before finding a wide open driveway, and did a U-turn, and stopped.

He KNEW he had turned around, and began the temper tantrums again! He didn’t WANT to stand in that driveway, he wanted to GO! Backing, a little half-rear, and then he tried to turn to the left (which is the direction back to the barn). As was advised, I turned him left, and we did a tight little circle until we came back to our original position (I made sure I was in a wide enough driveway to do that!). Again he started backing, or trying to turn to the left, again I drove him in a tight little circle to the left, and stopped. AGAIN he started fussing and taking off without my say so, AGAIN I drove him in a tight little circle and returned to the original position. After the third time around we stopped, and he stood…occasionally switching his tail or stamping a foot. Immediately moving off on my voice command (no more slapping the reins on the butt, it DOES make a difference!!):lol:

Four or five times heading back down that road, wherever I knew it’d be wide enough, we stopped. Two or three times he threw a hissy, and got himself driven in a tight circle for his trouble, then we would halt, and I could almost see the wheels turning in his little Arabian head. “Hmmm…when I act the brat, I have to do that annoying little circle thing…but when I stand still, I get to…stand still!”

We came to the scene of our traumatic incident that sparked this thread…I eyed the lilac bushes warily. We approached the intersection, and stopped. He stood perfectly fine…no stamping, no fussing, no tail-switching! After a few minutes we crossed and headed down the road (NOT back to the barn, which probably threw him off guard…good!). The remaining 4 or 5 times I stopped him and made him stand, he did PERFECTLY! We even stood outside the barn pointing into the indoor arena, he was perfectly comfortable (except for the flies that were back). Only reason we went in earlier than I’d have liked was the threatening black sky behind us…didn’t want to get caught in any more hail, thank you!

So, I’m VERY optimistic, he did so well I thought, compared to last time.
Thanks again for all the help. No more butt-slapping with the reins, I promise!

[twofatponies]

Nice!

[QuzqosMa]

A Quickie Update!

Took my horse out for a 3 hour drive yesterday afternoon, did a lot of back roads and woodsy dirt-road driving, and I’d give him an A- on the stopping thing. A mile or two of the back roads were actually one-lane dirt roads through the woods, so when a car approached, I was able to drive him into one of the many cut-outs on the side of the woods for this very purpose (it’s a road leading to a rustic campground, so they planned ahead), and he stood like a champ as the car/truck/dirt bike slowly trundled past us, and didn’t take a step until I told him to!

At the actual intersections he was equally good. He tossed his head, pawed once or twice, but NO rearing, NO wiggling, NO trying to spin to the left or right. Even at the intersection with the lilacs he stood rock solid, and I was even able to move him forward one step (and halt), one step (and halt), as we crept forward trying to see past the lilacs that blocked the view of oncoming traffic. I’m SO pleased, and again, thank you all for your help. We all need to keep in mind that EVERY drive is a training drive!

Sue & Himself

[Cartfall]

[QUOTE=QuzqosMa;3251723]
One friend told me she gave up on Arabians because she was tired of having to outsmart her horse. I’ll definitely keep you all posted, thanks again for your input![/QUOTE]

Ya definitely gotta work with them. Too bad your friend’s horse was smarter than her!!! smack me down now!!!:lol::yes::winkgrin:

[Greenhorn]

About a year ago I bought a harness horse who worked well for its owner. Since then every time I harness her up she will not go forward and only wants to back up. I’ve tried several things including working her without the cart/wagon but it has not helped. Previous owner did not have this problem. I recently borrowed the bit that he used for her and it did not help she still wants to back up only. Any ideas on this situation?

[goodhors]

Any chance previous owner can come watch you hitch and ask for forward? Sounds like you are doing something to have caused the problem, reins to tight, hanging on the reins, asking for backing without knowing it, so horse developed the problem.

I would think you have go back to long lines with you on the ground, no vehicle, to retrain horse correct response to the command to move forward.

[CERT]

@Greenhorn

About a year ago I bought a harness horse who worked well for its owner. Since then every time I harness her up she will not go forward and only wants to back up. I’ve tried several things including working her without the cart/wagon but it has not helped. Previous owner did not have this problem. I recently borrowed the bit that he used for her and it did not help she still wants to back up only. Any ideas on this situation?

If the previous owner had no issues it has to be something with what you are doing, be it the equipment or how you are asking her to go. I might also have her teeth checked out to be sure they aren’t interfering with the bit.

[DMK]

@goodhors

I would NEVER let a held horse do endless circles instead of standing when requested. Teaches him to ignore you, he learns nothing, plus gets him MORE FIT, to last even longer on the next circle session!!

Actually, I understand the premise of this training method and it is not without its benefits, pretty basic stuff, actually…

Can you MAKE a horse stop? No, let’s face it, you can’t. You can’t even do it when you are on them never mind in a cart. It’s a bit like jigging. If a horse is jigging and you want him to walk pretty much all you will get is tighter smaller more explosive jigging steps. You will keep asking the horse to do something and you will continue to FAIL. That is the worst possible outcome.

So if you analyze what you want (stay here aka HALT or get to point B slower, aka WALK) vs what the horse wants to do (GO SOMEPLACE ELSE FASTER) and accept you cannot force what you want and achieve a productive training session, then you need to get them to something you want them to do, you need to control the feet and the choices instead of the horse controlling your choices.

With jigging, a surprisingly effective approach is to move up out of the jig and trot in a small circle. The horse isn’t going where they want (typically towards the barn), you are getting exactly what you asked for, because while you can’t make a jigging horse walk you damn sure can make them trot. at various points you ask them to walk, if they offer a walk relaxed contact, you leave the circle and walk on. As soon as they jig (#andtheywill), you go right back to a trot circle (and I do mean a productive trot circle). Wash, rinse, repeat. Sooner or later the horse is going to realize that the path of least resistance is walking on relaxed contact.

I can see the value of the same exercise to a driving horse that will not stand if that is the hand you are dealt that day.(walk/work/trot in circles, do something you are in charge of, then offer the horse the opportunity to halt as a reward. Wash, rinse, repeat). Yes, of course it means you have a lot more work to do outside this session, it clearly points to a critical hole that needs fixing (as does jigging). Experienced trainers understand that and develop a plan to address the root cause. But regardless, they MUST respond to the situation in the moment and this is a very effective tool to have in your toolkit.

But this is just one approach, and there are surely others. We should never close our minds to learning, so I am always in favor of learning other methods to respond to these type of behaviors in the moment!

ETA - sorry, just noticed this orig quote was from 2008!

[goodhors]

Actually you took one sentance of the post and put an entirely different meaning to it, than was originally meant in this third post by me, about the OP’s problem.

My remark was meant to be that I would not allow a horse I was HOLDING to twirl around me, being disobedient. Makes me dizzy and he is definantly not listening or obedient towards goal of standing still.

Because I did not continue remark with further things I would do with horse, you came to the wrong conclusion about my method of stopping the twirling, which would be taking charge and directing his actions so he IS being directed and obedient to me. Use his forward in a useful way, under your control, don’t ask for what he can’t do (stand still) at this moment. These directions could be any number of my choices to help him learn. A lot of times you can only get a moment of obedience, so that is what you can praise him for. Move on to something else quickly, don’t drill him on this.

But I stick to the helpful old posts by NJ2 and Ashemont for starting at the beginning to educate the horse and get him standing well. Good basics will always help the horse when building his education to reach skilled and useful as an enjoyable horse to have around. I wonder how he ended up, now that it is 10 years later.