Overly Motivated Harness Horse

I’ve been driving my 10 yr old Arabian gelding for little over a year now, and he’s doing super…except (there’s always an “except”)…when we stop at intersections or exiting driveways, he’s so impatient to keep moving, that he’ll either start to rear, back up, or try to turn sideways, anything BUT stand still. I suspect some of it’s excess energy and frustration, and for the record, he pulls this same sort of thing under saddle. Sometimes I have trouble getting him to move forward after this, he’d rather continue to back up (almost backed me into a lilac bush this past weekend), or turn around to go back the way we came. If voice commands fail, and reins on the rump don’t do it, I will apply the whip to cut through the mental fog he’d wrapped himself in, and then he’ll go forward.

Any ideas or clues on how to work on him to stand quietly and wait until he’s told to move forward without the drama queen display?

Last night I ground drove him up and down the road, stopping in the driveway, or along the roadside (making sure no traffic was approaching), and he did put up some pretty dramatic displays, but after a while he did settle down and waited patiently for the next cue.

I drive in a two wheeled cart (thankfully, otherwise his antics would have resulted in a much more dramatic story, lol), and had switched from a half-cheek snaffle to a kimberwicke recently to ensure he halted at those intersections (but he was doing this stuff with both kinds of bits)

Thanking you in advance, wise CotH-ers!

At the risk of being too blunt
This horse has your number and has not yet been trained to do what you are asking of him

You need to back down on this part of the training and break it into little steps and PracticePracticePractice

The halt is a very hard gait to get, especially if you dont ask/expect it and let them get away with sloppiness.

Anyway, back to little steps
Make sure you take time to practice on the ground HALTING This horse probably is also not the most respectful just leading to your command, so start with that
work also on the lunge (yeah yeah not so much fun as just going out and blasting around - but that is not getting the job done either)
In the carriage you need to practice the halt too
one way is to just stop - for no reason - anywhere and stand for only a minute or so, then go on - - over time extend the length of time you are stopping for several minutes WITHOUT FUSSING

Also practice this at the beginning and end of EVERY drive - build in extra time to just stand around in harness WITHOUT FUSSING
hitch up - get in the cart - and just stand for a couple of minutes
a lot of horses are not very good at that until you let them know that this is what is expected
Same thing at the end - come back to your unhitching spot and just stand quietly
One friend of ours brings out a book to read to pass the time during standing practice

Until you let the horse know that THIS is what is expected and that they are not going to get their way til they do it, you are going to continue to have a FUSSY horse who wont stand for you

Im not saying its easy or that my horses are the best at standing, but it is something that you have to work at to get the result you want and you have to give up a lot of time breezing the countryside in order to get it. IOW no quick miracle fixes

But when you have a horse that behaves well - it is such a nice thing, really worth the time and work

Best of luck and keep us up on how things are progressing

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got my attention

QQM I spotted the comment on “reins on the rump.” That’s a no no. They slap reins in the old movies but slapping or shaking the reins is sending some real weird signals up to the bit.

Horse backing up needs the whip right now. Don’t throw away the rein contact.

Haven’t heard from LF in a while but I know he’d be right there with me on this. Horse needs to go forward until stopping is a good thing and rewarding in its own right. Trying to restrain, suppress, or bottle up all that wonderful energy that your horse has is setting the stage for a fight. Let some of that energy flow into forward motion until it is somewhat dissapated then halting will be more agreeable to you both. Not saying to not teach the horse to Whoa just saying to work with rather than against the energy.

Back in the old days I trained dogs and I always told students to “never give a command you can’t enforce.” I’d soften that today to “never give a command that does not have a high probability of being associated with the desired behavior.” In other words don’t ask the dog to come when he is chasing the cat. Ask him to come when he is looking at you and might actually come to you.

Ask the horse to halt when he is likely to actually do it rather than when the odds are he doesn’t want to do it. If you can’t do this in your neighborhood because of traffic or whatever, load him up and go where YOU know you could go for 10 miles without having to stop.

Dick

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I caught the reins on the rump, too. A definite no-no! What I also read is that this horse exhibits the same behavior u/s. And he’s TEN which means he’s probably been doing it for some time. It will NOT be an easy fix and it’s going to take lots of time.

Brakes have always been important to me. When I used to train outside horses folks always used to joke that you could tell one I had broken by the way they always stopped when asked. To me that’s just not something that is up for debate. The horse does NOT get a vote. When I say stop we STOP. And we STAND. It’s something I work on from day one. nj2 has outlined what you need to do and I hope you will take it seriously. Horses that don’t stop and stand are dangerous.

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I’ve only had a few lessons, but one thing that stuck was how important it is to make the horse stand still until told otherwise.
What one clinician did if the horse was antsy and didn’t want to stand, was turn him in a small circle and let him go round and round until the HORSE decided to stop. Going round a little circle endlessly when the driver isn’t making you go, gets tiring, I’d imagine. Of course, this is ring work, not likely something you can do on the road!

Wow! My first “maybe helpful” post in the driving forum!

Cinder

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Have to agree with NJ2’s program and Ashmont’s comments. You have to go back to basics, get the horse to associate word commands with actions like halt and stand, walk and halt, stand in many places, QUIETLY. You need to do this with horse on lead. Get it good there, then progress to ridden horse. After all that work shows you success, THEN you can get back in the cart. He has to be pretty reliable in following directions, to be safe in a cart, out in traffic.

In the cart, I think Kearly gave good advice, let horse get warmed up, burn off energy, THEN ask for short halt and stand. I also agree with his remarks on whip, which should be in your hand at all times. REINS are for communication, not whacking horse on rump. Lucky he hasn’t kicked as a response to that. Whip length should reach driven horse shoulder, not a butt-whacker length like on old TV movies. Use the whip if horse ignores your forward command. My horse gets one vocal request, then the 2nd vocal request with whip touch. Backing up when not asked for can get you and him into a lot of trouble, don’t let him get away with it.

So, back to in-hand basic commands. Get him TRAINED to obey, not ignore or argue when directed. He won’t do command driven if he won’t do the command while being led.

A useful addition to your harness would be a kicking strap for safety. It prevents him getting his rump up to kick cart. He may get rather angry with new changes in your handling, being expected to obey promptly. So having a kicking strap on EVERY hitching, will prevent accidents if he should get nasty in the hind end.

I would NEVER let a held horse do endless circles instead of standing when requested. Teaches him to ignore you, he learns nothing, plus gets him MORE FIT, to last even longer on the next circle session!!

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I just wrote a very long with lots of ideas but it got lost. So here is a shorted verson second time around!!!

I drives Arabians. They are very opinionated and will take a mile given a inch.

The backing up bothers me-- could it possibly be an avoidance to the bit or cart? Arabs have low pallets and if you are driving in a broken bit, the joint may be poking him in the mouth. If the cart is unbalanced, it will be painful to the horse.

If you are slapping the reins on the rear, you can;t be driving with any contact. I have just really learned what the proper contact is on my horse. Consider lessons with a driving trainer who uses contact, not someone who is a recreational driver who has no idea what it is. I drive all sorts of places–shows, CDEs, trails, competitive trail driving. There are different contacts for each, but it must be there.

Do you ever do any arena work? Making this horse stop and stand for long periods will get you a fight. Do some arena work with a cones circle and practice stopping at a point on the circle. When the horse stops, immediately move on. Reward him for doing a quiet stop. As he learns he gets to move on as soon as he is quiet, he should become better at it. I just spent a year getting my 7 year old Arab gelding to stop after he decided one day, stops were not necessary. I always do some arena work, maybe 15 minutes, before going out on a trail drive. Do not drill the halts, get one, reward him and move on. As he gets better at it, then start adding time into it.

Good luck.

I would NEVER let a held horse do endless circles instead of standing when requested. Teaches him to ignore you, he learns nothing, plus gets him MORE FIT, to last even longer on the next circle session!!

The horse wasn’t held. He was asked to stop and stand. He started to fuss, so the driver turned him in a small circle and then just let him keep circling until he stopped. Seemed to work for this guy.

I’ll go back to lurking and ASKING questions, now.

Cinderslinksoff

Thanks everyone for the great advice, glad I posted! I got this horse as a relatively untrained 6 year old, so he had a lot of time to develop his own ideas on how things should be. He had no idea how to canter with a rider, how to back up under saddle, you couldn’t even run with him on a lead (like for Halter or Showmanship). So all things considered, if this is the worst of his problems, he’s doing pretty good. :slight_smile:

Thank you so much for the reins-on-butt info, I needed to know that!! What you said about rein contact was very helpful…(the only stupid question is the one unasked!). I’m all for going back to basics, and I do have access to both an indoor and outdoor arena. Thing is, his arena behavior is much different than outside world behavior…because the outside world is so much more exciting I suppose.

We’ve made great progress in other aspects of the training, and yes, I’ve been told in the past that he’s “messing with” me. One friend told me she gave up on Arabians because she was tired of having to outsmart her horse. :slight_smile: I’ll definitely keep you all posted, thanks again for your input!

Update

This weekend I applied the wise advice from this thread to my boy, helped by lunging him beforehand. I just ground-drove him in full harness (minus the breastcollar/tugs, didn’t need those), with particular emphasis on the driveways approaching the road. He tossed one minor hissy when I first picked up the reins (which is usual), and we ended up sideways up a hill, yikes! That didn’t work out!

Later in the driveway we were halted as a car whizzed by…soon as it passed, he started walking off (well, the car’s gone, time to get moving!). When I halted him, he started backing up, half-reared, and began trying to turn around. Okay, you want to go that way, you can go that way! I pretty much long-reined him in a tight circle 'round and 'round and 'round and 'round and then 'round some more, ending back in the direction I wanted him in. He behaved for about half an hour…more walking up and down the road, halting, standing, cars going by, no problem.

He tried his trick two more times, and both times he found himself being long-reined/lunged in a tight circle, and was unhappy about it (good!), only to be “rewarded” with a nice quiet stand-still at the end of the drive. I don’t know how much of it sunk in, but towards the end of the session, when I said “whoa” he said “how long!”, lol!

And I was careful to NOT apply the reins to his butt, using my voice, and if that failed, a tap of the whip. He was working completely off my voice for moving forward by the end.

Think I’ll do another ground-driving, repeating all these lessons, before hitching him up again. Thanks again for the help!

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Hey - great start
This is going to be an on going project
and your biggest thing will be to give him consistant and regular cues

Dont give up, and dont give in
A good horse is worth it in the long run

another thing we have done/are doing is to expect good behavior even in the cross ties

If I tell you to stand - that is what you do. Move a foot and I move it back til you stand still
Your reward is me leaving you alone when you are good and lots of “good boys”
It works great with one of our boys (the other has some of his own opinions - feet stay still but that bonking head?!?!?)

Joining the party late. But I now have one that thinks that backing will result in the people getting off and him getting out of work. (found this out after I bought him. ;)) I being a lot more stubborn and plenty more stupid hooked him to a sturdy 2 wheeler and started driving. When he stopped to back and spin we backed, and backed, and backed and backed some more. He found out that with the 2 wheeler he couldn’t cause a wreck and I could out last him. He has become a very solid driving citizen.

Don’t be to drive a horse to a fence, barn, trailer or the like and stand with them facing the object. Make them stand alert and ready. Start with a few minutes and gradually increase the time. Then remove the object and do the same things.

This wasn’t mentioned but cut out the hot feed if you are feeding any and work his energetic butt off. Make anytime standing a pleasure because he knows that work is around the corner.

LF

hey hey

Bless your heart! I knew you’d pop in LF and I knew you’d have my back on this one.

Thanks
Dick

Nice to hear your .02 LF! Knew it would be good.

You are spot on my game with this one. I have a driving pony we call Turbo. He is 100% safe in traffic, day or night. Won’t flinch for a mad dog. Will go 20 miles and laugh at you for quitting early. BUT…just like yours, he doesn’t want to stand still. He is now 10. We fought with him for a couple years over this, and the old Amish gentlemen took care of it with this simple truth. A horse that won’t stand still ain’t tired. Why do you want him wore out? Listen on. They told me to make him work, as in pulling a load, untill his legs give it up. We pulled him around the cornfield, up hill and down, dragging a spare tire for added resistance. Winded is not the key, rubber legs are. Turn him towards home, and if he won’t stand there waiting for your OK, get right back at it. DO not let him win this fight!! As long as it takes. When he will stand quietly with nothing in front of him, put him away. Do it every day, and ALWAYS win. Our pony took nearly three weeks. What happens is, they develope a mental state that tells them to rest while they have the chance, because they can no longer find a definate end to the job. We have to give our energizer bunny a refresher course, 3-5 times in the spring, because he forgets a bit under winter’s slack. He used to yaw around badly at intersections, back up, rear, even flop to the point of going down. Now, fresh out of the pasture for a drive short or long, he stands like an angel. Your pony has an attitude, and you need to change it. I was ready to send mine down the road, now he is not for sale, period. I simply worked him daily until his legs wore out his fight. I saw his legs actually quivering like a head shot boxer, and him still fighting it. The first time out was over two hours of hard work. Not driving, working. He finally got to where I could point him toward the paddock, and he would wait for the cue. If he won’t stand still, he doesn’t know what tired is, and has no fear of needing to rest while he has the chance. Mine is now golden, he was exactly as you described.

[QUOTE=jerry;3263264]
A horse that won’t stand still ain’t tired. [/QUOTE]

You owe me a new keyboard, :lol: ! That will teach me to drink and read at the same time!

I’ve never met a tired Arabian, so I think I’ve got my work cut out for me. Maybe I’ll hitch the BOs manure spreader up to him and work the back pasture, that ought to do it! :slight_smile:

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Please be careful with overdoing the leg work. Some horses will NEVER show quit and you CAN hurt them. Doesn’t matter how leg weary they are, they will hurt themselves before giving up.

Results can show later, not that day. They call it Road Founder for a reason.

We did that to one horse, back when we were following Grampa’s advice to “wear him out” so he will “stand still”. It was how folks fixed things then. I know we put too many miles on him that day and always felt bad about it. He was really lame the next day and for a while after. He did Road Founder. Could have been prevented, if we had worked on his problems from another angle. A learning experience for us, we won’t do it again. The work didn’t fix the problem. He never did stand long, gave you about 5-7 minutes for greeting the neighbor, then HAD to move on.

Know that there are repercussions, possible damage that can result in working a horse that long and far. I would try some of the other methods first, from my previous experiences.

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The chance of road founder is a tiny risk compared to bolting into an intersection. I have this bad habit of putting safety first. Of course, I wouldn’t do it to a fat, out of shape animal. I will do it again in a heartbeat if necessary.

[QUOTE=jerry;3266380]
The chance of road founder is a tiny risk compared to bolting into an intersection. I have this bad habit of putting safety first. Of course, I wouldn’t do it to a fat, out of shape animal. I will do it again in a heartbeat if necessary.[/QUOTE]

You know what you are dealing with in that horse, I don’t. You make your choices, have to live with the results. I would be trying other methods first, as I wrote above.

As with any “re-do, retraining” situation, there can be good or bad results to methods used, so the person getting advice needs to consider them. Each animal is different, the location they are used in, methods, can be successful, or NOT.

A horse going 20 miles on soft trails, sandy roads, probably won’t Road Founder. Same horse, doing 10-15 miles or more, in hard hoof concussion of pavement or packed down, hard dry dirt roads like we have locally, stone roads, could get Road Foundered…

A horse jumping out into intersections IS dangerous. Yet putting 20 hard miles on him doesn’t really address his intersection problem specifically. If he isn’t tired that day, WILL he stop and stand for me? Maybe, or maybe NOT!! He is still not TRAINED to stand, with dependability.

I do believe in working horses, going distances, and do use them that way. Trail riding all day puts the BEST walk on a horse, makes him forward, eager to reach the next camp for some food. Mine really march along, so it improves their driving gaits too. Riding for long times lets me use my leg aids 100 times to improve his sensitive reaction, sidepass, shoulder in, lighten him up on the reins and legs. He is not staggering exhausted, yet pleasantly less reactive to new things, gets more focused.

However, his basic training was already in place, knows walk, trot, canter, whoa and stand for long times BEFORE we set out on the distances. I am improving his responses, having a good time riding all day. He ALSO should be having a good time. Exhausted horse has no mind left for learning.

Horse handler, owner, just needs to be informed of both side to a method, before they make their choices. Doing milage can help, but it is very easy to overdo as well. Know that some horses just won’t give in to exhaustion, can and will hurt themselves if you keep asking. You may not see any results at the end of that long day, but horse will be in rough shape the next day or for a number of days after. Road Founder is mechanically caused by concussion, overdoing the work that day. It is not reversable.

You have to look hard at old-time methods, before jumping in. Those folks were dealing with rough-broke horses. Large MATURE animals who often were unhandled, unwilling to cooperate. HAD to get them going, and if you messed him up, there were lots more where he came from, all cheap. I have a large quantity of hard core old-time tricks in my training arsenal, yet get way better results with other, newer methods. Grampa bought his horses off the train at the stockyard in town. “Out of The West, by Train” was what he said when asked breeding! He had to deal with all those sorts of problems since they never were broke at purchase.

My horses now, are much better broke, responsive, with no trauma to anyone. A good sweat on a tired horse is fine, but not finishing with a leg-weary, staggering, exhausted animal. I learned, and then improved on what Grampa taught me. You need a lot of methods to hand, since just one doesn’t work with all animals.

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A horse jumping out into intersections IS dangerous. Yet putting 20 hard miles on him doesn’t really address his intersection problem specifically. If he isn’t tired that day, WILL he stop and stand for me? Maybe, or maybe NOT!! He is still not TRAINED to stand, with dependability.

So, you read little or nothing of what I said, you just like to argue. I said every day, for as long as it takes. Since you won’t make your pretty pony behave in this fashion, you are not qualified to judge me. And now that he is right in the head, he stands quietly anywhere, intersection of not. That’s all I ask, and it’s what I get. Do whatever you like.