Overwhelmed by supplements/balancers

[Ghazzu]

@Guilherme

You talk about a spreadsheet, but how to you populate it?

NRC guidelines are a decent starting point.

Throwing money at it by “shotgun” buying at the feed store is not a recommended practice.

G.

And it seems to me that that is precisely what the OP is trying to avoid doing.

[JB]

@Guilherme

How do you KNOW the diet your horse is eating is deficient or sufficient in the nutrients generally required by horses doing what YOUR horse does? The FIRST step in the SOAP process is a “subjective” assessment. The we do the “objective” assessment. This means the subjective should be carefully considered but it is a step on a road, not the entire journey.

In the context of this thread, absolutely nobody suggested otherwise.

You talk about a spreadsheet, but how to you populate it?

Same way a nutritionist would - get and enter an analysis of the forage and any additional feeds and supplements. If you don’t have a forage analysis, then no matter who you are, you’re starting from a guesstimate. If you’re able, you find a local source database of averages of the type of grass/hay you’re feeding (and many times, cattle owners will have this, they’re waaaaay more in tune with analyzing forage than horse owners are).

FeedXL is an in expensive start. You can also use this handy dandy online NRC guide for what your horse should get - just know that it’s about “not sick” health, and not necessarily optimal health
https://nrc88.nas.edu/nrh/

She did not get bogged down in minutia.

The average person, which is the vast majority of the world’s population in this context, doesn’t need their diet micromanaged. If she were working with elite athletes, she would have to be willing to get bogged down in minutia. The OP’s horse doesn’t sound like an elite athlete, and neither is she trying to manage him like one. She seems to be just looking for better than “good enough”

But FIRST you have to KNOW you have a problem and then use the SOAP to try and solve it.

I know you like to have a problem first. And to some extent I think more people should stop looking for solutions to “problems”. But that’s not the same as being proactive in preventing problems, which is all the OP is looking to do. And to do that, the diet has to be analyzed as best as can be with the information available, knowing some guesses based on averages will need to be made

Throwing money at it by “shotgun” buying at the feed store is not a recommended practice.

I totally agree, and thankfully that is exactly what the OP is looking to not do.

The horse was eating “free choice Coastal from a round bale and SafeChoice Maintenance, access to a generic salt block; I was also giving him Uckele Copper and Zinc pellets”.

and “What was suggested was to add in half a flake of alfalfa in the evening, a “flax based supplement like Platinum Performance” and a fat supplement (if needed).”

Hardly shotgun buying from a feed store.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Guilherme

If I ruled the world the supplement industry would likely try and have me assassinated. I would make ANYTHING you put in an animals body with a claim of physical alteration of that body meet the same standards that we use on humans.

G.

Human supplements are not regulated by the FDA. Under the FD&C Act (I thhiiink section 501), they cannot make claims to treat a medical condition but they can certainly suggest all sorts of wild claims.

[Ghazzu]

@GraceLikeRain

Human supplements are not regulated by the FDA. Under the FD&C Act (I thhiiink section 501), they cannot make claims to treat a medical condition but they can certainly suggest all sorts of wild claims.

Animal supplements are similar. Hence the weasel wording of “a comprehensive formula to address joint support, G.I. integrity, muscle support, hoof support, digestion, and hair coat” and so forth.
The minute they make an actual claim that their product reverses or halts the progression of DJD, they become an unapproved new animal drug.

[Guilherme]

@GraceLikeRain

Human supplements are not regulated by the FDA. Under the FD&C Act (I thhiiink section 501), they cannot make claims to treat a medical condition but they can certainly suggest all sorts of wild claims.

Indeed. If I ruled the world they WOULD BE!!! As Ghazzu notes these people are passed masters at “weasel wording.” In in prior life I had to deal with a LOT of it.

As to JB’s long response, it’s just more of the same arguing for complexity vice the KISS principle. If you think you have a problem then SOAP it. If you are going “in harm’s way” by engaging in a new or more demanding discipline then SOAP it. The exact, same process applies both prospectively and retrospectively even if the some of the methods will vary.

G.

[Toblersmom]

@Guilherme

Indeed. If I ruled the world they WOULD BE!!! As Ghazzu notes these people are passed masters at “weasel wording.” In in prior life I had to deal with a LOT of it.

As to JB’s long response, it’s just more of the same arguing for complexity vice the KISS principle. If you think you have a problem then SOAP it. If you are going “in harm’s way” by engaging in a new or more demanding discipline then SOAP it. The exact, same process applies both prospectively and retrospectively even if the some of the methods will vary.

G.

OK, I’m gonna take one last crack at this. It’s not a mystery that certain types of diets for any given species tend to be deficient in one or more nutrients, or otherwise problematic. For humans, for example, rice-dominant diets are often deficient in Vitamin A, corn based diets deficient in niacin, typical diet of British Navy in the 18th century deficient in Vitamin C, typical American diet often low on Folic Acid for pregnant women. Not invariably deficient to an extent to cause a problem, but enough that there are regional diet-based spikes of conditions such as scurvy, pellagra, blindness, neuro tube defects, and goiter. Rather than waiting for those diseases to show up, people develop “golden” rice, iodize salt, nixtamilize corn, send limes on ships, and enrich flour with Folic Acid. Does EVERYBODY who eats those things NEED them? Of course not. But it’s not going to hurt them, either, and it’s better on a population basis that men get more Folic Acid than they really need rather than waiting for the babies with neuro tube deficits to be born to prove to yourself there’s a problem in that particular woman’s diet. It’s better to give those sailors limes at the start of the voyage rather than waiting for their teeth to start falling out. Who cares if one guy manages to catch enough rats to stave off scurvy, or the voyage might wind up short enough that they make landfall and get fresh food again. It’s not worth the risk.

Rough idea of “typical” nutritional value of coastal hay is not a mystery. I may not get my hay analyzed but a lot of other people do, and chances are really, really good mine’s similar. The nutritional needs of horses in general is also not a mystery. There are known values for how much x/y/z nutrient a typical horse needs, and chances are my horse isn’t all THAT different. I’m not enough of a nutritionist to know exactly what a typical coastal hay lacks that a typical horse needs, but there are people out there who do, and it seems to be a lot smarter to go ahead and give some of that to be sure, rather than wait for problems. I don’t want to feed just hay, have his feet start going to hell in six months when that catches up to him, and spend another six months fighting crap feet after I add back in what I should have been feeding all along. Maybe my hay and my horse are miraculously atypical, but for a a few bucks a month, why gamble?

[Jarrn]

@Guilherme

I understand all the concerns. But before you add something should you not ensure that what you’re adding is necessary? And will not cause other problems? How do you KNOW the diet your horse is eating is deficient or sufficient in the nutrients generally required by horses doing what YOUR horse does? The FIRST step in the SOAP process is a “subjective” assessment. The we do the “objective” assessment. This means the subjective should be carefully considered but it is a step on a road, not the entire journey.

You talk about a spreadsheet, but how to you populate it?

I’m sure vets look at equine nutrition sort of like M.D.s look at human nutrition: not in a very detailed fashion. My wife’s university level Family Practice had a PhD nutrition on staff for many years. And she was from New Orleans, meaning she knew that you could have highly nutritious foods in your diet without having to eat stuff that tasted like cardboard. When she managed the Departmental “pot lucks” they were GOOOOODDDDD. But her gift was to make assessments that were both accurate and timely without sacrificing the pleasure of a good meal. She did not get bogged down in minutia. I’m sure there are very well qualified equine feed specialists that can do likewise for the horse. But FIRST you have to KNOW you have a problem and then use the SOAP to try and solve it.

Throwing money at it by “shotgun” buying at the feed store is not a recommended practice.

G.

Bolding mine.

I don’t understand your question? You populate it using the values for the feed you are feeding and hay analysis. And you KNOW that your horse’s diet is deficient because you look at what they’re eating, look at the recommended levels, and then feed based on that. It’s not some magical guesswork. There are published, recommended amounts of (most) minerals that horses need, based on its work load. If your horse has known health issues, then you change it around based on that and research. It’s really not that hard.

Testing your horse’s hay, checking recommendations, and drawing up a spreadsheet will prevent PRECISELY what you are so concerned about - “shotgun” buying at the feed store. Adding copper because your horse’s iron:copper:zinc ratio is incorrect is not the same as feeding a randomly chosen calming supplement at the store.

[Ghazzu]

@Jarrn

You populate it using the values for the feed you are feeding and hay analysis. And you KNOW that your horse’s diet is deficient because you look at what they’re eating, look at the recommended levels, and then feed based on that. It’s not some magical guesswork. There are published, recommended amounts of (most) minerals that horses need, based on its work load. If your horse has known health issues, then you change it around based on that and research. It’s really not that hard.

Testing your horse’s hay, checking recommendations, and drawing up a spreadsheet will prevent PRECISELY what you are so concerned about - “shotgun” buying at the feed store. Adding copper because your horse’s iron:copper:zinc ration is incorrect is not the same as feeding a randomly chosen calming supplement at the store.

This.
It isn’t rocket surgery, and it isn’t voodoo.