Overwhelmed by supplements/balancers

[Toblersmom]

Horse is a basically healthy six year old Mustang gelding in good weight and light (currently with the Covid situation, EXTREMELY light) work, last weight on scales 1050 lb a few months ago, no visible changes in weight/condition since that weight. On his previous diet (before recent change) his hoof quality has been excellent, hair quality as expected for being out 24/7 in Texas (fades badly in sun).

I recently moved my horse to a situation where I have more control (and responsibility) over what and how much he’s eating. Previously he was on field board so he more or less ate what everybody else ate (free choice Coastal from a round bale and SafeChoice Maintenance, access to a generic salt block; I was also giving him Uckele Copper and Zinc pellets when I would go out, 4-5 days a week, treats of various kinds when I went out). The last couple of months, on the advice of our vet, we removed the grain and all treats to see if his behavior improved (he’d been getting weirdly reactive). It has, without making him “dull” or lose weight, AND we recently moved to a setup that’s a stall-and-run, solo night turnout, so I’m in a position to add in the items the vet suggested to round out the coastal hay diet (now from small squares, if that makes a difference), without having to supplement everybody else’s horse in the field, too, or pay a premium to have my guy brought in to be fed separately. What was suggested was to add in half a flake of alfalfa in the evening, a “flax based supplement like Platinum Performance” and a fat supplement (if needed). I also plan on offering free-choice loose salt. Hay analysis is unlikely to happen any time soon, unfortunately, and I’m unlikely to be in the know regarding when a new shipment comes in that would need re-testing.

So, is PP really the best option here? Glanzen 3 seems superficially similar, and is cheaper. What are some other low-NSC general supplement or “ration balancer” out there that would reasonably balance out common coastal hay deficiencies and be palatable either on its own or mixed with hay pellets? Anything I could use that would let me drop the Cu/Zn or is it a good idea to keep up with that (he has horrible sun fading, although maybe that will be less of an issue with more shade access)? If he starts losing a bit of ground and offering more hay doesn’t fix it, what’s are some good fat supplement options? Finally, should the salt be iodized or non-iodized? The iodized is certainly easy enough to pick up cheaply. I’m not going to pay through the nose for some “horse” himalayan salt if I can get a big sack of Morton’s at CostCo.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[GraceLikeRain]

PP is quite pricey.

There are a number of vitamin/mineral combos that you can add to a handful of soaked beet pulp or some other carrying agent to help balance a hay/grass diet. My price per day may be a bit old. The nice thing is that with most of these you shouldn’t need to supplement with copper and zinc in addition.

Far from exhaustive:
Vermont Blend $1/day largest bag
High Point Grass (Horsetech) $0.80/day
California Trace (California Trace) - $0.80/day in 40 day supply
U-Balance Foundation $1.80/day
Sporthorse Grass (Uckele) $1.30/day
Arizona Copper Complete $0.50/day
High Point Grass/mixed hay $0.82/day

[juliab99]

I have been looking into ration balancers as well for my horse. I am planning on ordering mega-cell by mvp, it is a vitamin/mineral supplement that is specifically to give horses on grass hay everything they’re missing. I have not used it yet but I have heard great things, and it seems to be worth a try considering it is only about $0.30 a day (if you order 2+ months worth).

[JB]

Anything from HorseTech is superior to PP which is just an overpriced (IMHO) lightly fortified flax supplement

A ration balancer is easy. If he’s reactive to soy, then I’d go with High Point Grass (HorseTech).

And no, that’s unlikely to let you drop the copper and zinc.

MegaCell is ok. Better than some, not as good as others. It doesn’t balance all hays for sure

[Ponycatraz]

California Trace Plus let me drop the extra Copper/Zinc from my horses diet with no fading. He is still solid black in the fall. After a year on it my pony went up almost two shoe sizes and also had a much thicker sole!!

He was on HorseTech prior so I wasn’t expecting to see that much improvement but the CA+ really works for mine. I put it in hay pellets for my extreme easy keeper and Renew Gold for my normal easy keeper.

It does have selenium in it so if you need something without you may need to get their standard CA no SE or a custom mix of the plus.

[BlueDrifter]

You might want a year’s subscription to FeedXL.com. You can mix and match from their huge database, and compare supplements you are considering. It is quite educational, and very easy to use.

[Toblersmom]

What about Buckeye Gro N Win? As far as I know my guy has no specific sensitivities to soy, but it looks like the Safe Choice he had been in may or may not have contained soy at any given time since it’s a variable formula? Who knows, maybe his change of reactivity had to do with a formula change in that. Does soy make some horses reactive?

[walkinthewalk]

@Toblersmom

What about Buckeye Gro N Win? As far as I know my guy has no specific sensitivities to soy, but it looks like the Safe Choice he had been in may or may not have contained soy at any given time since it’s a variable formula? Who knows, maybe his change of reactivity had to do with a formula change in that. Does soy make some horses reactive?

Yes, soy can make some horses reactive - I have one:)

The change was so dramatic even my non-horse husband noticed a difference in that horse’s behavior.

This horse and my IR/Cushing horse are both on HorseTech’s condensed, soy-free vit/min supplement for grass fed horses. I use a measuring cup of Timothy pellets and a bit of water as the carrier. I feed the meal form but the supplement also comes in pellet form.

[JB]

@Toblersmom

What about Buckeye Gro N Win? As far as I know my guy has no specific sensitivities to soy, but it looks like the Safe Choice he had been in may or may not have contained soy at any given time since it’s a variable formula?

Guaranteed all the SC feeds have soy, whether hulls or meal or both.

Does soy make some horses reactive?

Yes, just like alfalfa and oats and corn and beet pulp makes some horses reactive.

[stb]

I think Triple Crown’s new Balancer Gold is soy free. Might be worth a look.

[Obsidian_Fire]

I like Uckele’s Equi VM. No added iron, and it is - per serving - inexpensive.

[Toblersmom]

@JB

Guaranteed all the SC feeds have soy, whether hulls or meal or both.

Yes, just like alfalfa and oats and corn and beet pulp makes some horses reactive.

I’m wondering now if the SC had a reformulation in the region based on ingredient costs that increased the proportion of something he’s sensitive to, as the barn had been feeding it for months with no apparent problems (and no issues with the feed they were using before that, I forget what it was), and he started having issues in late November. Went from a schooling show and WE clinic in a busy indoor for the first time in two years where he took everything in stride (including getting inadvertently bonked several times with the garrocha, poor thing, he’s stuck with me), judge’s comments were “needs more energy”. To bolting, abrupt sideways teleportation even the western trainers had a hard time sticking in western saddles, jumping out of a five foot round pen like a wildie, with the added bonus of horrible ground manners up to and including striking, with behavior getting worse instead of better with a good professional working with him.

[JB]

@stb

I think Triple Crown’s new Balancer Gold is soy free. Might be worth a look.

Yes, but you’ll have to make up some of the protein/amino acids due to the lower profile of that balancer

@Obsidian Fire

I like Uckele’s Equi VM. No added iron, and it is - per serving - inexpensive.

Yep, there are several high level soy-free v/m supplements out there, some of which are also iron-free, like California Trace (not as comprehensive as others), High Point Grass, and a few of the Uckele products

@Toblersmom

I’m wondering now if the SC had a reformulation in the region based on ingredient costs that increased the proportion of something he’s sensitive to, as the barn had been feeding it for months with no apparent problems (and no issues with the feed they were using before that, I forget what it was), and he started having issues in late November. Went from a schooling show and WE clinic in a busy indoor for the first time in two years where he took everything in stride (including getting inadvertently bonked several times with the garrocha, poor thing, he’s stuck with me), judge’s comments were “needs more energy”. To bolting, abrupt sideways teleportation even the western trainers had a hard time sticking in western saddles, jumping out of a five foot round pen like a wildie, with the added bonus of horrible ground manners up to and including striking, with behavior getting worse instead of better with a good professional working with him.

So hard to say. While "least cost"formulas COULD change, it does take sitting down and reformulating the rest of the ingredients and/or amounts to stay within the same GA, so it’s not something they’d do just randomly at the drop of a hat.

There’s an issue right now with dried distillers grains (DDGs) getting hard to find with the drop in ethanol production, which is making feed companies scramble to figure out how to replace or reduce them and still stay at GA. The companies that use the smallest amounts will have an easier time than companies that use larger amounts.

[Guilherme]

I’ll start by saying I’m satisfied that most supplements you buy over the counter are just another version of Yakov’s Golden Elixir. If you don’t what that is then Google it and be entertained by a very old but VERY funny movie sequence.

One way to test the entire panel of what you’ve been using is to take advantage the current “mandatory down time.” If you can, saddle up and ride your horse for a normal for you work period. If you do things measured with a stopwatch or a yardstick do them and have someone note what your performance levels are. If you don’t do that then have someone video you so you can see what the horse can do right now.

The stop and all meds or supps not prescribed by a vet. ALL OF THEM. Keep your feed program steady. Keep your exercise program steady (if you can). Maintain a steady state as far as you can.

In 30 days repeat the test. See what you have. If you’re not riding consistently then allow for some “de-conditioning” during the layoff period.

What’s the BCS? What is coat, hoof, and overall appearance quality? What’s the performance quality? How does this compare with the baseline you set 30 days before? If there is no functional difference then go 60 days and do it again. If there is no change then go 90 days. If there is no change take half the money you saved and donate to your favorite charity. Go have fun with the rest.

If you notice a definable, negative change then reintroduce the supplement items one at a time on 30 day intervals until you find the ONE that works. You still have a shot at saving some real money.

The supplement sellers (and their allies) will not like this approach but it has some merit, IMO.

G.

[JB]

The problem with observing the outside of the horse for changes in an at home setting is you have no way to control the rest of the environment- changes in seasons, quality of grass, condition of the ground (soggy wet or bone dry all the time), and that impacts things as well.

Coat changes due to dropping (or adding) a supplement now may not be seen until 6 months from now when the Winter coat has come in, or even next Summer. You may not see hoof quality changes until new grown get close enough to the ground - 6+ months. It can even take several months of acclimating to a high fat diet to really see if it’s going to make the changes you want.

Some issues due to a chronic mild deficiency can take years to show up. The OP isn’t randomly choosing supplements the Smart Pack quiz told her she needed in order to be a good owner. She’s choosing them to hopefully make an optimally balanced diet. Otherwise I would mostly agree with the “drop it and see what happens” method - joint supplements, calming supps, energizing supps, sparkly toes supps, etc.

Copper and zinc are less supplements and more part of the whole feeding program. It’s not difficult to determine if they are needed and in what amount. Same with some other truly nutritional supplements - selenium, Vit E, etc.

[Toblersmom]

@Guilherme

I’ll start by saying I’m satisfied that most supplements you buy over the counter are just another version of Yakov’s Golden Elixir. If you don’t what that is then Google it and be entertained by a very old but VERY funny movie sequence.

One way to test the entire panel of what you’ve been using is to take advantage the current “mandatory down time.” If you can, saddle up and ride your horse for a normal for you work period. If you do things measured with a stopwatch or a yardstick do them and have someone note what your performance levels are. If you don’t do that then have someone video you so you can see what the horse can do right now.

The stop and all meds or supps not prescribed by a vet. ALL OF THEM. Keep your feed program steady. Keep your exercise program steady (if you can). Maintain a steady state as far as you can.

In 30 days repeat the test. See what you have. If you’re not riding consistently then allow for some “de-conditioning” during the layoff period.

What’s the BCS? What is coat, hoof, and overall appearance quality? What’s the performance quality? How does this compare with the baseline you set 30 days before? If there is no functional difference then go 60 days and do it again. If there is no change then go 90 days. If there is no change take half the money you saved and donate to your favorite charity. Go have fun with the rest.

If you notice a definable, negative change then reintroduce the supplement items one at a time on 30 day intervals until you find the ONE that works. You still have a shot at saving some real money.

The supplement sellers (and their allies) will not like this approach but it has some merit, IMO.

G.

I certainly hear what you’re saying and think the supplement market is more than a little ridiculous these days, there is no doubt in my mind that a horse eating what is more or less the same species (variety even) of plant exclusively, at the same general stage of growth, more or less grown in the same area of the country, is likely to suffer SOME kind of deficiency. Even critters like koalas and Giant Pandas that eat one type of plant (eucalyptus and bamboo, respectively), eat a broad array of species of that plant, and eat it at a variety of stages of growth. The problem with the observational approach is that many of the deficiencies, particularly in regards to hoof quality, will take months to really show themselves and further months to improve once corrected. I asked here for basic guidance of what’s really reasonable to use to fill in those gaps without paying a lot of money for a lot of stuff I may or may not need or getting something that might have the same problems that the feed he was getting before seemed to cause.

@JB, sounds like the HorseTech High Point Grass pellets should be a good option (the powdered forms I’m not sure he’d eat since it would fall through the hay pellets I’d be mixing it with).

[Guilherme]

I’m aware of the various difficulties, here, and that’s why I picked a program that would run for five months. i disagree at least in part that this is only a way to measure “external change.” Note that I said the owner should establish a performance baseline BEFORE the program begins. As to other environmental considerations if nothing changes in those considerations beyond the normal (seasonal changes, pasture rotations, etc) then you are likely “stable enough” to get a fair reading on the actual effect of things you’re feeding your horse. This is NOT, nor is it intended to be, a “university level double blind study.” It is intended, and should, give a reasonably observant horse owner a fair look at the real performance impact of the stuff they are feeding.

If I ruled the world the supplement industry would likely try and have me assassinated. I would make ANYTHING you put in an animals body with a claim of physical alteration of that body meet the same standards that we use on humans. But I don’t and the industry spends several tens of millions of dollars per year ensuring that our Congress does not think the way I do. That reality (that they have to pay vast sums of “protection money” and “bakshish” each year) to protect themselves from realistic regulation should be a GIANT RED FLAG! And I’m not a “big government” fan precisely because government can be so easily bought (even when there is a fair regulatory setup).

I would stand by my program as it begins with the proposition that NOTHING that is removed was prescribed. Meaning that there was no veterinary SOAP process and from the get-go we have NO idea what it does or doesn’t do. We’ve had an AWFUL lot of talk on the virus front about “junk science” and unqualified persons (including politicians) hawking stuff that might not at all be a good idea. Why would we shelve those thoughts when looking at equine health and self medication?

G.

[SonnysMom]

@Guilherme

I’m aware of the various difficulties, here, and that’s why I picked a program that would run for five months. i disagree at least in part that this is only a way to measure “external change.” Note that I said the owner should establish a performance baseline BEFORE the program begins. As to other environmental considerations if nothing changes in those considerations beyond the normal (seasonal changes, pasture rotations, etc) then you are likely “stable enough” to get a fair reading on the actual effect of things you’re feeding your horse. This is NOT, nor is it intended to be, a “university level double blind study.” It is intended, and should, give a reasonably observant horse owner a fair look at the real performance impact of the stuff they are feeding.

If I ruled the world the supplement industry would likely try and have me assassinated. I would make ANYTHING you put in an animals body with a claim of physical alteration of that body meet the same standards that we use on humans. But I don’t and the industry spends several tens of millions of dollars per year ensuring that our Congress does not think the way I do. That reality (that they have to pay vast sums of “protection money” and “bakshish” each year) to protect themselves from realistic regulation should be a GIANT RED FLAG! And I’m not a “big government” fan precisely because government can be so easily bought (even when there is a fair regulatory setup).

I would stand by my program as it begins with the proposition that NOTHING that is removed was prescribed. Meaning that there was no veterinary SOAP process and from the get-go we have NO idea what it does or doesn’t do. We’ve had an AWFUL lot of talk on the virus front about “junk science” and unqualified persons (including politicians) hawking stuff that might not at all be a good idea. Why would we shelve those thoughts when looking at equine health and self medication?

G.

Except most vets don’t have a very good nutritional understanding and don’t want to. I have generally not had a vet prescribe or even discuss with me what my horses are eating or getting for supplements other ther than one time the vet said the horse was anemic use Red Cell. No suggested amounts, no suggested length of time and no follow up testing suggested to even see if the Red Cell was working. No thoughts on why the horse might be anemic. It was my HYPP horse so maybe related to that??? From everything I have read since then Red Cell is really crap for horses.

I have never had a vet prescribe electrolytes but have one horse that was routinely lightly colicing in spring. I put him on an electrolyte year round, less in winter, more when he is sweating in the summer. He has not coliced since. A friend’s horse was routinely colicing and I suggested the electrolytes to her. Interestingly enough he has not coliced in the 2 years since then. Neither of our vets suggested the electrolytes but for some reason it seems to help both of these horses.

An please stop trying to sneak political crap into discussions. You have been putting those snide remarks into a few posts lately. We really don’t need to go down that road as we just start to bicker.

[Jarrn]

@Guilherme

I’m aware of the various difficulties, here, and that’s why I picked a program that would run for five months. i disagree at least in part that this is only a way to measure “external change.” Note that I said the owner should establish a performance baseline BEFORE the program begins. As to other environmental considerations if nothing changes in those considerations beyond the normal (seasonal changes, pasture rotations, etc) then you are likely “stable enough” to get a fair reading on the actual effect of things you’re feeding your horse. This is NOT, nor is it intended to be, a “university level double blind study.” It is intended, and should, give a reasonably observant horse owner a fair look at the real performance impact of the stuff they are feeding.

If I ruled the world the supplement industry would likely try and have me assassinated. I would make ANYTHING you put in an animals body with a claim of physical alteration of that body meet the same standards that we use on humans. But I don’t and the industry spends several tens of millions of dollars per year ensuring that our Congress does not think the way I do. That reality (that they have to pay vast sums of “protection money” and “bakshish” each year) to protect themselves from realistic regulation should be a GIANT RED FLAG! And I’m not a “big government” fan precisely because government can be so easily bought (even when there is a fair regulatory setup).

I would stand by my program as it begins with the proposition that NOTHING that is removed was prescribed. Meaning that there was no veterinary SOAP process and from the get-go we have NO idea what it does or doesn’t do. We’ve had an AWFUL lot of talk on the virus front about “junk science” and unqualified persons (including politicians) hawking stuff that might not at all be a good idea. Why would we shelve those thoughts when looking at equine health and self medication?

G.

Okay but we’re not talking about the OP adding a calming supplement or a joint supplement, either of which may or may not work. We’re talking about the OP balancing a diet using vitamins and minerals that we know (or at least assume, based on some form of science) a horse needs. It’s not difficult to put together a spreadsheet and determine if your horse is low in something and to supplement it.

also OP: I know you said that testing your hay was not possible, but you can look up hay analysis for the area (for cows) that may be somewhat in the ballpark of what your hay tests at.

[Guilherme]

@Jarrn

Okay but we’re not talking about the OP adding a calming supplement or a joint supplement, either of which may or may not work. We’re talking about the OP balancing a diet using vitamins and minerals that we know (or at least assume, based on some form of science) a horse needs. It’s not difficult to put together a spreadsheet and determine if your horse is low in something and to supplement it.

also OP: I know you said that testing your hay was not possible, but you can look up hay analysis for the area (for cows) that may be somewhat in the ballpark of what your hay tests at.

I understand all the concerns. But before you add something should you not ensure that what you’re adding is necessary? And will not cause other problems? How do you KNOW the diet your horse is eating is deficient or sufficient in the nutrients generally required by horses doing what YOUR horse does? The FIRST step in the SOAP process is a “subjective” assessment. The we do the “objective” assessment. This means the subjective should be carefully considered but it is a step on a road, not the entire journey.

You talk about a spreadsheet, but how to you populate it?

I’m sure vets look at equine nutrition sort of like M.D.s look at human nutrition: not in a very detailed fashion. My wife’s university level Family Practice had a PhD nutrition on staff for many years. And she was from New Orleans, meaning she knew that you could have highly nutritious foods in your diet without having to eat stuff that tasted like cardboard. When she managed the Departmental “pot lucks” they were GOOOOODDDDD. But her gift was to make assessments that were both accurate and timely without sacrificing the pleasure of a good meal. She did not get bogged down in minutia. I’m sure there are very well qualified equine feed specialists that can do likewise for the horse. But FIRST you have to KNOW you have a problem and then use the SOAP to try and solve it.

Throwing money at it by “shotgun” buying at the feed store is not a recommended practice.

G.