Owning/Riding the un-amateur friendly horse...

So I’m just your a typical amateur rider. I compete in the jumpers mostly at the 1.0m height. My current horse is a 15yo OTTB, that left the track at age 10 with an incredibly successful career…aka War Horse status. He is scopy and athletic however he’s not exactly amateur friendly. He has a personality in which he’s very stubborn and a fighter. In that I mean, if he’s mad, you’ve got what you’ve got attitude and all. He’s not consistent when showing day to day and sometimes class to class. I might have a quiet horse one second and the next forward and stubborn.

He’s not impossible to ride but a bit unpredictable in not knowing what I have till we’re in the ring. So he’s a challenge and he’s definitely more a pro ride.

I love him to death and when we click and we’re on it we’re hard to beat but other days we’re lucky to make it around. I’m all for challenges and I feel I could learn a lot from this guy, I’m just curious if there are other riders out there that have the same kind of horse and how to mentally deal with the roller coaster of success and failures?

I have an excellent trainer, hes not in pain, and in an excellent training program.

Horses are not machines, everyone deals with this to some extent just some more than others. The challenge should make you a better rider.

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I know all about riding challenging horses.

I just don’t know anything about showing them :slight_smile:

You need to pay attention to what makes him mad, what makes him excited, etc. It’s possible that you need to let him move out more than you currently feel comfortable doing. Spend more time thinking about his day to day reactions when you are hacking, etc.

It might just be that you need to learn to ride well enough that you aren’t continually pissing him off, which was what I had to do.

He may also feel like he knows his job and can only take so much rider interference before he gets disgusted.

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I don’t ever know which personality will appear at home and have learned to adapt to all of them :lol:. I tried very hard to turn my horse into an eventer after he finished racing, he wasn’t having any of it (I’d evented for 10+ years at this point) he was a semi unridable mess at horse trials. Various reasons decided to try a bit of snow jumping, he started out the wild eventing horse and slowly things started clicking. He thrives on consistency, at home and at shows. He knows exactly what to expect at shows, we have our routine down to a science. He likes knowing what he’s expected to do, at this point I’m pretty sure he could do it without me :D. I’ve had great help from my coach, learning to trust this horse was a challenge that my coach just kept working away at helping me develop.

I’ve really learned how to ride him in a way that gives him the opportunity to succeed, and like everything that’s still being finessed and adjusted. Paying close attention to what does and does not work is really important. That’s how we’ve figured out what routine my horse likes, when he’s happy he jumps well and doesn’t breathe fire which makes me happy.

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Horses don’t get mad at riders if there is no reason. Hubby said that Sim was getting mad and doing the opposite of what he wanted. He had kicked out and hubby had landed on his neck.

I had no idea what he was talking about as Sim does not get mad and tries his heart out and has no buck .

i went up 5 days in a row and gave him a lesson. A happy horse. A happy rider and no kicking out at all. I still have no idea what he was doing to upset Sim but the fix was to change the rider’s riding. Not the horse.

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My big guy is an OTTB who shows in the jumpers. I used to say this same thing about him. It wasn’t so much an issue of winning or not getting around, but I was never quite sure which horse was going to show up at the show day in and day out. He was definitely a challenge, and I there was a period where I wasn’t sure there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

But ultimately for my guy it was a mileage/age issue. He was pretty opinionated for the first few years, but eventually figured out what was expected of him and turned into his very stereotypical TB all-heart self. Now he’s the most consistent and predictable horse I have. Also, it helped a TON when I figured out his stomach issues. He’s also a very stereotypical TB in respect to the fact that he’s pretty ulcer-prone. So getting him on the right diet completely changed his temperament…especially the first few days at shows.

But your guy raced until he was a lot older. He might just be more set in his ways. IIRC from your prior posts, you’ve been showing him regularly since you bought him, right? So it’s probably not an issue of “not enough show experience.”

In regard to your confidence and feelings of success (or failure), it’s tough to give answers for that. This sport as a whole is very much like that regardless of how consistent your horse is. But even so, I have a much harder time staying positive on a horse who is inconsistent, which is why I always try to have multiple horses with at least one predictable one in the mix! That’s probably not very helpful, but it’s how I cope with it. I will also say that perspective helps - I’ll take one that wins one day and not the next over a horse who is consistently mediocre and never in the ribbons!

And also, sometimes it helps to step back and look at where you’re at. Often times you make improvements gradually and don’t really notice how far you’ve come until you go back and watch older videos or remember challenges from months or even years ago that are no longer challenges you face.

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I think when it works out well, you (general) become a more tactful rider with more tools/experience/education that you can transfer to your next horse(s).

For me, this meant learning to use my leg even more properly, with the right timing and pressure, learning what leg-to-hand meant on a horse that would invert if behind the leg and get behind the bit on an ounce too much hand. And learning what following rein really meant — i knew how to do these on other horses but with this one particular horse, he didn’t allow for any laziness (more mental than physical) on my part and made me pay more attention to and develop my riding even more. If I had any weaknesses he found them and definitely exposed them — if I was not straight, he was not straight; if I didn’t get him forward, working from behind, getting him to take contact…we wouldn’t have a decent canter, never mind jumping. It wasn’t him that was inconsistent necessarily, it was more me learning to just ride better, which included figuring out what to do to have a horse willing to work for me and having fewer and fewer “fights”. In this case, starting out by cantering forward was one of the key things. Simple but not always the easiest on this horse.

To this day, I don’t know 100% for sure that he had ZERO physical issues that might have contributed to him being difficult but he required even more correct riding to travel properly himself, so he didn’t go around like a giraffe or stop or add 3 extra strides in a line (he had a big stride, but he could bounce on the spot if your leg wasn’t there, in a way that encouraged forward and through without speed or lack of self-carriage). I mean he wasn’t to the best of our knowledge unsound or unable to do the work. And he did it and could be lovely… and also difficult. I wouldn’t trade what I learned on him but neither would I want another one like him.

When it doesn’t work out, I think riders can become frustrated, discouraged, lose confidence… if I had ridden that horse a year or maybe even 6 months earlier, I might not have had enough riding education to build on to have it work out well. By that point, I was secure in my base, able to ride off my leg, with independent aids… this horse meant riding even better, rising to the challenge, instead of developing unwanted or defensive habits from a tough horse. It was definitely a case of right timing; still one of the hardest horses I’ve sat on, because it was about being more patient and focused, more supportive with the leg, more subtle/ tactful with the aids. I couldn’t coast or not show up less than totally focused or he’d know it.

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If he’s more of a pro ride, how about having your pro ride him in a few shows? The experience might give him a bit more confidence in his job, and your trainer might have more insight to offer you having experienced the same ride in the same situation.

Thanks everyone!

The ups and downs do wear down on my confidences and it could simply be I can see distances anymore, so giving large spots which of course when the jumps go up I don’t blame him for hitting the breaks. This week I am working on the 5 stride exercise working on his adjustability, my eye and overall rhythm. But right now today I can say my confidence is thin. I will get it back, it has happened before, but Id like to learn to not take it as a hit to my confidence but more learn from it and improve. I am trying to also pay more attention to his cues. He can get annoyed by simply repeating exercises so we can only work on things so long. Because he does have the “I know what I am doing and don’t need anyone to tell me what to do” mentality. So you can see how human interference whether correct or incorrect will annoy him. I’m not saying that this old dog can’t learn new tricks, but its hard to convince him that he can! (Sometimes I wonder if hes honestly a mare…:p)

I’m determined to not give up. So I will try anything to work on both myself and him to make us better. My trainer truly likes him and she has a blast working with him when she rides him.

The last sentence contains your answer. You just need to learn to ride better. Lots better. That isn’t a fast or easy suggestion. But if your trainer loves riding him it shows that his grumpiness is not his personality or pain or hates his job. He just loses patience with some of what you do in the saddle.

Figure out what those things are through close and honest self evaluation and change them.

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I’ll give you the other side of this, as an amateur now on the other side of riding an un-amateur friendly horse. I had one for years, got him as a 3.5 year old. He was always difficult but I was in my 20’s and toughed it out because we thought one day he’d grow up. He never really grew up. We got to a point where for about 1-2 years we were winning up a storm in our chosen division but then he decided he didn’t want to do that job anymore either (and he was always difficult through this phase still, bad days at home, difficult at shows). His hallmark was unpredictability. I never knew if I was going to come out and have an animal that felt like participating and being pleasant about it or one who wanted to fight me over it. Or worse one who wanted to fight me over it by rearing and running away from objects in the arena he went by the day before with no issue. I stuck it out for almost a year of that kind of behavior (and we evaluated him from a pain point of view and never found anything with the vet or farrier or chiropractor, if anything he was frustratingly sound and healthy, physically).

Finally, as someone who travels for business, I came back from a trip to ride for the first time in several days (he was kept in regular work with my trainer) and he was explosively bad. And I decided I was done with it. My time and my safety were more valuable than that. So we moved him on and found me something more amateur friendly. Comes out of his stall the same everyday, is predictable under saddle. Not explosive. It’s been life changing for me. I knew but didn’t fully appreciate how much the other one had hurt my confidence and how much he’d deeply ingrained some bad defensive riding habits in me. I feel like for the first time in a long time I’m actually getting to work on myself as a rider instead of a survivor on a horse’s back.

I’m not saying you need to move on. But I’m also saying that sticking it out for the sake of sticking it out isn’t good for anyone either and it’s really difficult to know when you’re at that point. It took some real self-reflection for me to accept I’m not the teenage rider I once was who could and would ride anything with four legs. And once I accepted that I also realized that I didn’t want to anymore either. Finding a horse that better suited my lifestyle has made the sport fun for me again. A month into having the new horse I realized how much fun I was NOT having with my previous horse.

Just food for thought from someone who has been through that, and more than once. Feel free to PM me about my experience if you want. It’s not easy and every situation is different!

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I have no advice as I have yet to figure it out, but I own the mare version of your gelding only she only raced 8 times :lol:. I think for my horse it is a mileage thing. She is wonderful to trailer and is very calm in new places depending on the situation - for example we trailer out to trail ride often and at new places she is the same as at home BUT at new show places she can be good or she can revert to her 5 yr old self. We also have the issue of being one horse while schooling or warming up then being completely different in the show ring (which I am positive has to do with me) which makes it difficult for me to keep up.

I got one of those Euro horses that was a jumper doing 5 year olds - but very slowly lol. He was definitely not an amateur horse and I am DEFINITELY an amateur with the associated phobias and mental blocks. I had almost no help with him because for one reason or another my trainer/coach was off for over a year and no one else that could handle him, could find the time to help me. So I hit the ground time and time again, got back on and powered through it. Not ideal and I cried way more about this than my marriage ending, but I didn’t have another option, this was the horse I had.

What I did learn from him is that I’m not his partner per say, I’m pretty much his social manager. I make sure no one bothers him, he gets lots of turn out and doesn’t lose his shizzle over anything. At shows he goes for lots of walks and eats lots of grass and I try and stay calm when I show. It doesn’t always work and sometimes my new hunter turns into jumper freak and corners like a car on two wheels and acting like he’s never seen a corner before, but we have way more good rounds than bad now. And I can actually say that I LIKE him, that was not the case a year and a half ago.

In return, he allows me to bath him (he’s grey) as much as I need to and put ear plugs in. Those weren’t options when I first got him. We’re still discussing the whole clipper thing and I figure if that’s his line in the sand, I’m cool with that.

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I agree with Scribbler and Hairystockings. I’m a decent Ammy. I am also blessed to have an Ammy friendly horse now that makes life so much more enjoyable. Long distance? No problem. Short distance? No problem. "Actually- let me just find the distance- don’t get in my way ". “I think you just asked for a lead change, we’re supposed to do one here”- no problem. And she’s a Red mare - gasp.

I had a surgery recently that recovery took longer than expected. I climbed on her after 3 weeks off- she’s the same without any pro rides as she before her time off. My other I had to ride 5-6 Days a week.

I still get some pro rides on her because - well- I’m not a pro. Keeps her tuned and gives her some precise riding.

I had one that wasn’t particularly Ammy friendly. She didn’t hate my style of riding, she just was better for someone who could devote more than I can right now. Making the switch was best for us both. Talk to your trainer. Also- my other way way more athletic than my Red mare. She NEEDED more from a rider than I could currently give her.

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This is good advice, make sure you consider both sides of the coin, and perhaps have a frank discussion with your trainer about whether it is realistic to change your ride on the horse enough to get to the point that both you and the horse are happy, and how long that would take, and make sure you want to sign up for that. If it fixable in a reasonable time, great, but if it just isn’t the right match, there’s no shame in acknowledging that and moving on and finding a better fit for both you and the horse. I know far more people who are really glad that they moved on than who are really glad they stuck it out for a really long rough patch.

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As an amateur who has only owned and ridden what you term “un-amateur friendly” horses (which, in all honesty, I find rather offensive), I have learned IT AIN’T THE HORSE.

Time to up your game and become a serious rider/athlete. As stated previously, horses ARE NOT MACHINES! Time to step up to the plate and become an amateur horseman and not just a rider.

I love my whacky, unpredictable OTTBs. They have taught me more about riding with finesse, subtlety, and confidence than any trainer. Every horse has told me to up my riding game to a new level.

If you don’t want to do that, which is OK, then be the true amateur and move on to a more appropriate horse, one that doesn’t require you to put the work and effort into the relationship. Because that is what riding these horses are about, a real, trusting relationship.

For me, when you are on XC galloping down to a car (really), and thinking that this is insane, and then your partner says, “I got this, dad” the “un-amateur friendly” horses are beyond the best. When an olympic rider derides you and your ability during a course walk and then you carry though a combination that buried them, the love and fun in the partnership just fucking shines. When I galloped at a 6’ ditch and brush with my reptilian brain screaming “PULL!!!” and my rational brain going, “Shut the fuck up!” and my know-it-all TB saying, “Banzai!!!” it changed my absolute level of trust and confidence forever.

But all of it required me to absolutely up my game as a rider and horseman. I had to put the fucking work in every day, mind and body, rain or shine, and day or night.

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Like others have suggested, you need to take a step back and evaluate whether your horse is really the right horse for you. There’s no shame in realizing that he isn’t. What are your goals? Is he helping you achieve them? Are you happy? Are you enjoying yourself more than you’re frustrated? If your answer is “no” to any of those, you should reevaluate.

If you decide he is the right fit for you, then you also need to take a step back and evaluate what you really mean by saying he’s a pro ride and how you can learn how to give him that ride moving forward.

The “pro ride” term really just designate a horse that needs a specific or controlled ride/program, as opposed to the “ammie ride” that is more forgiving, quieter, and more consistent. While the terms are industry-standard, what I dislike about them is it makes one think that a “pro ride” horse can only successfully be ridden by a pro. Which just isn’t true, mostly because the Pro and Ammie distinction doesn’t necessarily indicate skill level. @PNWjumper and @RAyers are better than many pros I know.

What “Pro Ride” really means is that the horse needs either a specific approach or a specific ride…or both! What you need to assess is what you mean by saying he needs a pro ride - why would a pro be more successful? Is it skill related? IE. do you need a stronger position? Better timing? More tact? Better feel? Or is it approach/mental related? IE. do you need to be less emotional in your ride? Do you need to be braver or firmer? Do you need to take things less personally or not let things frustrate you? Do you need to have more appropriate expectations?

These are the things that an experienced rider (pro or ammie) does well, and are the things oftentimes needed for the “pro ride” type of horse. And ALL of these things, whether it’s skill or approach related, can be learned. The question is whether you want to spend the time and effort doing so, and only you can decide that. Yes, a professional rider sitting on 5-10 horses a day is going to have more experience and skill to draw on than an amateur riding 1 horse 5 times a week. But you don’t have to ride 5-10 horses a day to identify the 5 things your horse needs from you and then learn to do those 5 things better. Don’t be afraid to take a step back, to put in the hard work in whatever area it needs, to really figure your horse out and become a better rider and horsewoman in the process. It’s SO gratifying, and is truly becoming a lost art in the modern horse era.

You aren’t alone. I would call my mare anywhere from a difficult ride to a very difficult ride. She is very strong, very mentally sensitive but physically insensitive, and very inconsistent in how she comes out day to day. I’m a very experienced rider but have really struggled with her and have spent many days crying in frustration and embarrassed that I couldn’t do better with her. I’ve recently made some huge, huge strides forward with her, and it all came down to me learning to eliminate my expectations (however justified they seem) and simply give her the ride that she needs. I imagined a pro on her - what would they do? I realized I needed to remove my unfair expectations, accept who she is (good and bad), greatly increase my patience, and modify the ride I give her. And I’ve had two months of the most consistent and great rides I’ve ever had on her in the 8 years I’ve owned her…and I dare say, she’s feeling more and more “ammie friendly” every day.

Food for thought!

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I’m struggling with this currently. My guy needs the 6 day a week and precise ride of a pro program. Even in that he would fight back when things got tough or he didn’t understand. Two years ago I was ok with that, then I injured my back (not horse related) and was forced to take a year off. Now the pro ride/pro program my guy needs is just not fun for me anymore. I’m currently struggling with the decision of what to do with my guy. I read a comment on another thread here the other day that really stuck with me…this is supposed to be fun. I used to find fun in the process of the green beans and tough horses. Unfortunately I’m no longer that kid and for the first time in my life that made ammy horse that can sit for a few days and come out the same trusty ride looks really attractive. What part of the process do you find fun? What do you need to get those fun moments? Is it the reward of learning to ride this horse or is it a different ride completely?

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I haven’t had a made horse since my first pony. My child/adult hunter would stop if I asked for anything longer than the perfect distance. My adult jumper is a TB mare and once she goes into jump off mode, straight fails to exist. All of my others have been OTTB that I’ve trained… one had a nasty attitude, another had serious anxiety issues, my newest is 11 and hasn’t done anything since she retired from racing at 4… and she’s very sensitive in the mouth. I’ve been riding a rhorse for a friend who is super talented but is a lazy jerk sometimes with a nasty spook. But all of these quirks make it FUN!!! I get so bored when there is nothing to work on… my hunter is retired from jumping, and he’s super easy on the flat. I hate flatting him because it’s so boring! Give me a project and some spice any day… it’s far more rewarding than riding a machine.

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This post answers some questions I was mulling over about, what does pro ride really mean?

I agree that while useful as shorthand , it is also a bit reductive in that it suggests a clear distinction that doesn’t really exist.

As one of the other posters pointed out, it’s more useful to identify the specific things that make this horse difficult and see if you can rise to the challenge, or not.

Because really all horses are pro rides. Every single horse goes better for the pro. Even the crocked old lesson horse that will barely shuffle trot for a beginner will come awake and jump some credible 2 foot poles :slight_smile: for the young instructor who tunes him up.

​​​​Its true that a pro has depth of experience to bring to new situations. But the ammie has the advantage of being able to study one horse intensely and perhaps work out an idiosyncratic agreement with him.

The areas where pros are better than their respective ammie clients include: tact and timing, confidence in the use of aids, sticky seat, and confidence to go forward. Indeed forward is usually the big distinction between pro and ammie, in dressage as well as the jumping disciplines.

I say “pro and their respective ammie clients” because the young instructor on the crocked lesson horse doesn’t ride as well as ammies in the big jumps. But she rides way better than the beginner lesson kids. Just as when the high level ammies go to a George Morris clinic :slight_smile:

So the ammie/pro distinction as it relates to the rider is relative.

Actually if a pro can get on a horse and have a great ride, I take that as a good sign. It means the horse has no serious problems. He just needs to be better ridden.

Now like I said that is easier said than done.

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