Pacey awkward TWH

My TWH, Brandi, is all around awkward. We have been conditioning for about 3 months. We moved to Georgia from Colorado, where we didn’t do much but walk about a year ago. My BO and another girl got me started on this endurance stuff. So this whole actually moving thing is new to both of us. She can go through a myriad of gaits, and loves to run. So there’s that, at least.

But she paces. She loves her some pacing and I hate it. And I don’t know what to do to get her to stop. We’ll go along nicely for a bit, and I’ll get her to move into her running walk (which I have to continually push or she’ll just go back into her normal walk) and then she goes into a pace. Or whatever it is. It’s bouncy and I can’t sit it or even post it. It’s awful. My BO said she needs some more muscle, but I’m not sure what to do. We don’t even have an arena/round pen so it’s hard to do much ground work. Any ideas for how/what to do to get her to stop?

Tried putting weight on the front end?? Heavier shoes, heavy bell boots?? Worth a try to break the pace…

My friend just sent me this link of the trainer she is using. This trainer has quite a few videos that are on YouTube about reducing pacey-ness. Disclaimer - I have never ridden a gaited horse.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7yMVITZZ-ew

Ivy is a great resource. So are:

Anita Howe
Gary Lane

I have to disagree with sk_pacer. Weights will help in the short term but once they muscle up, they go back to their old way.

Although the OP walked the first year, she may have been allowing a lateral walk instead of a square 4-beat walk. The running walk is a faster version of a square 4-beat walk (same footfalls, just increased tempo). Building the correct muscle along topline and haunches is the key, and all the trainers Katarine mentions will show you how to do that.

Pacing horses travel hollow. And you can walk hollow, which does nothing to improve the muscles needed for a smooth gait. Learn how to get your horse to have a neutral back (not hollow, not rounded) at the walk and the pace will go away.

I’ve been working on this with my gaited horse and we are finally getting to a good flatwalk, though he will revert to pace if he lets his back drop.

I, too, disagree with skpacer. You will get a result as long as the weights are on. Take them off and it’s back to the pace.

Your horse paces because that’s what its DNA says to do. The vast majority of Walkers pace as their “native gait.” Thank the Big Lick industry for that.

There are multiple ways to move the gait towards the center but none will be a truly permanent fix. What you will be doing with any approach is training a new gait to over-ride the horse’s DNA. Done correctly (with training, conditioning, strength building, etc.) you will not do the horse any harm. Done incorrectly (with “leather and iron” solutions, hoof butchery, etc.) you run the risk of inflicting serious harm.

Walk carefully as you set up your program. Good luck with the horse.

G.

My husband’s foxtrotter likes to pace - altho at least in his case it’s a comfortable stepping pace and not a hard pace.

Getting him to bend around your leg usually knocks him back into a more square gait…

But the more out of condition he is, the more effort it takes getting him to NOT pace.

Also keeping the head from getting too high and stiff helps - but it’s a lot of ground work and dressage type stuff to get him and keep him supple in the neck.

We had a discussion about this on the Off Course area.
www.chronofhorse.com/showthread.php?438357-TWH-likes-to-PACE-WWYD
It was started on May 29, 2014 in case I got the address wrong.

It may give you some ideas.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7681596]
I, too, disagree with skpacer. You will get a result as long as the weights are on. Take them off and it’s back to the pace.

Your horse paces because that’s what its DNA says to do. The vast majority of Walkers pace as their “native gait.” Thank the Big Lick industry for that.

There are multiple ways to move the gait towards the center but none will be a truly permanent fix. What you will be doing with any approach is training a new gait to over-ride the horse’s DNA. Done correctly (with training, conditioning, strength building, etc.) you will not do the horse any harm. Done incorrectly (with “leather and iron” solutions, hoof butchery, etc.) you run the risk of inflicting serious harm.

Walk carefully as you set up your program. Good luck with the horse.

G.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily…if a horse is not set/established in their gait, weight/shoes can help. I did that with my guy and kept shoes on him year round terrified that he would start pacing again after a while. For various reasons, shoes came off last November and he remained a gaiting machine all winter. My point is that they can help make a difference in the horse so the they learn to carry and move appropriately. Once that is ‘established’, you may not need them. Pacing develops different muscles than gaiting, so if you use shoes or weights as a temporary aid, and then condition the horse, hopefully the horse will learn self carriage in the gait as conditioning improves. This also holds true for the bit as well- i.e. an established horse with self carriage can gait in a snaffle or a shank bit.

I truly think the best way to get your horse to gait properly is proper riding by someone who knows how to fix this and bring out the appropriate gait. I would look for a trainer if you can find one. Otherwise, I would personally stick to arena work for a while until she gets pacing out of her head. Everytime she paces, stop her, and bring her down to a dog walk. Reward her when she gaits and does a flat walk or running walk. Also try dressage arena exercises that help with appropriate muscle development so she can hold the gait. Even if you cannot find a gaited or walking horse trainer, a good dressage instructor should be able to help so long as you know enough about what the appropriate gait is.
Working uphill vs down is also helpful to encourage a gait.

Pacing sucks. My guy does it for a stride or two but I can easily correct him with a wiggle of the rein. Watch for your girl to bring her nose out to pace and try to get her to maintain a correct frame- again, things that dressage would help you with.

Oh my. I feel like I’m going to drown! I’m somewhere between what I would call a beginner rider (I can get my other horse, a mustang to pick up leads correctly) and an intermediate rider. I do not own an english saddle, but think I could probably borrow one. I’m also on a budget. I mentioned lessons to my husband and he almost had a heart attack. (We’re putting him through grad school).

I’m not looking for quick fixes, and would prefer not to put shoes on her because she has amazing feet. She doesn’t pace all the time, but right now, I guess I’m not sure what she’s doing isn’t a step pace. It’s comfortable, and not bouncy, but I think maybe I’ll get my husband to video tape me Saturday putting her through what I can get her to do.

We have some poles, and enough of a long, flat stretch down the side of the driveway that I can do some flat work. I am doing lots of video watching/reading of all the resources that you’ve given me. I think I have a good place to start, for now. I know this could take a while. :slight_smile: Thank you.

[QUOTE=River;7682636]
Oh my. I feel like I’m going to drown![/QUOTE]

Hahaha. I had to laugh when I saw your user name and this comment!

Sometimes the fun is in the journey. You will be so elated when you feel your horse get just one small step in the process that you will be motivated to keep trying. Maybe you get to the end result. Maybe you don’t. In the meantime, both you and your horse are learning sooooo much. Relax and enjoy the process.

One hint is to use your phone to video your rides. Just set it up against something or use a pipe cleaner or wire to create a stand. Then, not only can you review your progress and make changes, but there are many forums that will help you out with training through your videos.

In any program to address the pace you must take a look at the feet to start. Ensure that the horse is trimmed to anatomical correctness not some arbitrary “gaited horse” trim. If shod, ensure the shoes are standard items like St. Croix Eventers or the like.

Weights are “action devices.” An “action device” is not a training device, it’s an “anti-training device.” When you use a device (bit, rein, crop, spur, seat, etc.) you apply pressure to the horse to elicit some response. When you get the response you release the pressure and note whether or not the horse continues to give you the response you want. If it does then all’s right with the world. If it doesn’t you reapply the pressure and try again. In most instances the horse will learn from this technique and you will have achieved some training goal.

The “action device” does the first part (apply pressure to achieve some movement) but when the movement is achieved it continues to apply the pressure. It is always “on” as long as the horse is moving. The horse gets no positive feedback from compliance. If you remove the device the pressure is “off” and if the horse does not continue the movement (and in my experience with multiple Walkers they don’t) then there is no “penalty.” This is mirror opposite of what you want if you want to “train” something into the horse.

IME it is myth and legend that “action devices” of any kind “train” a horse. If it were so you’d never see stacks, chains, bangles, beads, heavy shoes, etc. on a show horse. They would have done the “training” at home. But you do see these things (and not just in Walkers). That you see them in national show venues is proof that if you take them off they don’t work anymore.

One good way to break up a pace is to work with lower level dressage movements. Putting the horse on the bit is step one. You take the horse to the bit with your leg and seat, you don’t bring the bit to the horse with your hand!!! This will allow a measure of collection, but not so much as to induce a trot. It will also engage the back end (lots of pacers are strung out with the back and front ends moving “independently”). It will allow you to balance the horse. Shoulder in and out, side passing, half halting to maintain balance all will help the pacing horse use it’s muscles in new ways to bring the gait to the center. Work at the canter is also a good idea, as the canter is a three beat gait and that will help break up the four beat pace.

This type of program will take time, as in several months of serious effort on your part (vice the immediate change from an action device; you see why “quick fix” people like them). First you must build the strength, fitness, and endurance in the horse to perform as you want it to. Second these will be new concepts for the horse and may require a lot more effort than they are used to expending. Resistance is likely. You’ll have to ride through some “I don’t want to and you can’t make me” moments.

There’s quick, easy, and temporary or long, challenging, and permanent. Take your pick.

G.

New genetic research has identified the genes for all horses worldwide that gait. These are horses that amble which would refer to all the gaits that are comfortable, running walk, fox trot , single foot and so on and then there are the pacers a different set of genes. TWH breeders for yrs. preferred to breed the pacy horses because they could be great padded horses.

There really aren’t breeds , genetic breeds for the gaited horses, so any of the TWH may be pacing horses. BTY a much more efficient and easy gait for the horse.
Yes many pacy walkers can be taught to running walk but its a lot of work and mostly they learn to rack.

I know there will be a lot of disagreement with my comment but i have owned and breed gaited horses for over twenty yrs. now and they are all flat shod pleasure/trail horses, natural horses yet sometimes a pacy one is born to two great walkers.

Soon we will be able to test dna for the gait gene and know what will get when we breed till then a shot in the dark.
Get another horse, don’t waste time and money on a horse that won’t be able to make you happy.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7682936]
In any program to address the pace you must take a look at the feet to start. Ensure that the horse is trimmed to anatomical correctness not some arbitrary “gaited horse” trim. If shod, ensure the shoes are standard items like St. Croix Eventers or the like.

Weights are “action devices.” An “action device” is not a training device, it’s an “anti-training device.” When you use a device (bit, rein, crop, spur, seat, etc.) you apply pressure to the horse to elicit some response. When you get the response you release the pressure and note whether or not the horse continues to give you the response you want. If it does then all’s right with the world. If it doesn’t you reapply the pressure and try again. In most instances the horse will learn from this technique and you will have achieved some training goal.

The “action device” does the first part (apply pressure to achieve some movement) but when the movement is achieved it continues to apply the pressure. It is always “on” as long as the horse is moving. The horse gets no positive feedback from compliance. If you remove the device the pressure is “off” and if the horse does not continue the movement (and in my experience with multiple Walkers they don’t) then there is no “penalty.” This is mirror opposite of what you want if you want to “train” something into the horse.

IME it is myth and legend that “action devices” of any kind “train” a horse. If it were so you’d never see stacks, chains, bangles, beads, heavy shoes, etc. on a show horse. They would have done the “training” at home. But you do see these things (and not just in Walkers). That you see them in national show venues is proof that if you take them off they don’t work anymore.

One good way to break up a pace is to work with lower level dressage movements. Putting the horse on the bit is step one. You take the horse to the bit with your leg and seat, you don’t bring the bit to the horse with your hand!!! This will allow a measure of collection, but not so much as to induce a trot. It will also engage the back end (lots of pacers are strung out with the back and front ends moving “independently”). It will allow you to balance the horse. Shoulder in and out, side passing, half halting to maintain balance all will help the pacing horse use it’s muscles in new ways to bring the gait to the center. Work at the canter is also a good idea, as the canter is a three beat gait and that will help break up the four beat pace.

This type of program will take time, as in several months of serious effort on your part (vice the immediate change from an action device; you see why “quick fix” people like them). First you must build the strength, fitness, and endurance in the horse to perform as you want it to. Second these will be new concepts for the horse and may require a lot more effort than they are used to expending. Resistance is likely. You’ll have to ride through some “I don’t want to and you can’t make me” moments.

There’s quick, easy, and temporary or long, challenging, and permanent. Take your pick.

G.[/QUOTE]

THIS, 100%^ To update the earlier thread on the same subject, what you describe above is EXACTLY what’s working for my guy. Shoulder-in and circle work in particular is teaching him to really engage, along with canter departs uphill. We’re making great progress! :cool:

[QUOTE=walkers;7684944]
New genetic research has identified the genes for all horses worldwide that gait. These are horses that amble which would refer to all the gaits that are comfortable, running walk, fox trot , single foot and so on and then there are the pacers a different set of genes. TWH breeders for yrs. preferred to breed the pacy horses because they could be great padded horses.

There really aren’t breeds , genetic breeds for the gaited horses, so any of the TWH may be pacing horses. BTY a much more efficient and easy gait for the horse.
Yes many pacy walkers can be taught to running walk but its a lot of work and mostly they learn to rack.

I know there will be a lot of disagreement with my comment but i have owned and breed gaited horses for over twenty yrs. now and they are all flat shod pleasure/trail horses, natural horses yet sometimes a pacy one is born to two great walkers.

Soon we will be able to test dna for the gait gene and know what will get when we breed till then a shot in the dark.
Get another horse, don’t waste time and money on a horse that won’t be able to make you happy.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a citation for the statement that “New genetic research has identified the genes for all horses worldwide that gait.”? I’ve heard of a “gate keeper” gene that seems to inhibit the horse from trotting. But gait can be either lateral or diagonal or centered. Is there a gene for each of these? I’d really like to see the science that supports this idea.

Genes define what we are. They do not necessarily define what we can be. In some cases they do (a mare can’t be a stallion; a white horse can’t be black horse; a draft horse can’t be a mini; etc.). But once you get past the stuff that is truly defined by DNA you move into a world of malleable traits. A QH bred to be cutter can still pull a cart. A TB designed to run can move at a glacial pace in the Dressage ring. These are examples of training overcoming DNA. Indeed, we train to overcome DNA when we teach a horse not to bolt and run when presented with a “booger.”

The soft gaits exist on a continuum between the pace and trot. Training can move the gait of any horse with a non-trot intermediate gait a modest distance on this line. The amount will vary from horse to horse as will the amount effort needed to accomplish the move. This training does not alter the DNA of the horse. It alters the horse’s performance.

The advice to “get another horse” is not bad advice at all. Some horses will require a Herculean effort to break up a pace. I don’t have any “heartburn” with folks who lack the skill, time, or inclination to take on this effort.

As to a “test” for the “gait gene” I’m very skeptical. Genetics is NOT a “shot in the dark” process. Good breeders know this. They know which horses “breed true” and which don’t. If you stick to the known “true” breeders then you have a very high probability in getting what you want. It’s never 100% but it’s never “a shot in the dark”, either. :wink:

I’m still waiting to see more of the basic research in this area.

G.

US Davis is offering tests for the “gait gene” now, although at $350 a test I don’t see the masses rushing out to get it. It’s not going to tell you if a horse will do a RW vs a rack vs. a foxtrot or whether a TWH will produce non-pacing foals. There is no “running walk gene” or “foxtrot gene”.

AA horses are likely to want to pace, CA horses are likely to show one of the multiple intermediate gait variations, but may pace too. There’s a lot of ‘maybe’, ‘likely’, ‘possibly’ in the research I’ve seen.

I don’t really see the test as useful for anyone outside the STB industry (AA is desirable for racing pacers) or people crossbreeding gaited to non-gaited for whatever reason.

If I ask Toppy to climb a hill, be uses a lofty trot. If I ask him to go down a hill, he run-walks down it.

He can’t read his own genes :wink:

So I took video and she is step pacing. She starts out trying to gait (maybe two steps) and then goes into a step pace. We worked on getting her to give her nose, and we flexed and tried some circles. She was pretty confused, but tried hard. She definitely needs to be more flexible. I realize this will be hard work, but thats okay. If she gets it, great. Even if it takes a year. If not, thats okay too. I’ll figure out a way to deal with her pacing.

I am not going to get rid of my horse. She might be pacey, but otherwise she is a great partner. She will try anything you ask of her, loves trails and exploring, and has a great attitude. For now, this will be a challenge for both of us that wont her hurt her in the long run. Thanks for your replies.

Please see http://www.nature.com/news/horse-gait-traced-to-single-mutation-1.11308 for news about the gait gene.

[QUOTE=River;7686076]
So I took video and she is step pacing. She starts out trying to gait (maybe two steps) and then goes into a step pace. We worked on getting her to give her nose, and we flexed and tried some circles. She was pretty confused, but tried hard. She definitely needs to be more flexible. I realize this will be hard work, but thats okay. If she gets it, great. Even if it takes a year. If not, thats okay too. I’ll figure out a way to deal with her pacing.

I am not going to get rid of my horse. She might be pacey, but otherwise she is a great partner. She will try anything you ask of her, loves trails and exploring, and has a great attitude. For now, this will be a challenge for both of us that wont her hurt her in the long run. Thanks for your replies.[/QUOTE]

Perfect. Your horse is lucky to have you!!