But if the horse is for sale again, they can’t (ethically) keep the deposit, given what we know about the transaction.
If you think they can keep the deposit, then (hypothetically) what would prevent a seller putting a horse up for sale, showing it, taking a large deposit, and then two days later deciding that they don’t want to sell the horse after all, and they’ll keep the deposit too?
[QUOTE=Posting Trot;8157955]
But if the horse is for sale again, they can’t (ethically) keep the deposit, given what we know about the transaction.
If you think they can keep the deposit, then (hypothetically) what would prevent a seller putting a horse up for sale, showing it, taking a large deposit, and then two days later deciding that they don’t want to sell the horse after all, and they’ll keep the deposit too?[/QUOTE]
Aye, I think it’s a reason to file a police report and spread the names of the involved.
Like I said, start with the 20k closest friends…
OP-The final mistake was saying over the phone that you do not want the horse. deposits are given as surety to hold the horse. In saying you no longer want it you forfeited your deposit. Of course before you came on here, it would have been your word against his word, nothing in writing. You had a good chance of getting your deposit back up to that point, as a result of their non-communication, and the re-placed ad for the horse.
[QUOTE=merrygoround;8158139]
OP-The final mistake was saying over the phone that you do not want the horse. deposits are given as surety to hold the horse. In saying you no longer want it you forfeited your deposit. Of course before you came on here, it would have been your word against his word, nothing in writing. You had a good chance of getting your deposit back up to that point, as a result of their non-communication, and the re-placed ad for the horse.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this, unfortunately, I think this is so.
So ultimately, if a deposit/down payment/purchase is never written in contract, it automatically becomes non-refundable in the horse industry?
If so, what else becomes “automatic” if not stated in contract?
[QUOTE=jennycash;8158224]
So ultimately, if a deposit/down payment/purchase is never written in contract, it automatically becomes non-refundable in the horse industry?[/QUOTE]
Seems to me that they [Agent/seller] broke the contract [that you were buying the horse based on their acceptance of your deposit] when they re-advertised him and then told you, before you said you didn’t want the horse, that they had someone else trying him [one would assume that person was trying the horse to buy it?] and they would get back to you.
JMHO…
[QUOTE=jennycash;8158224]
So ultimately, if a deposit/down payment/purchase is never written in contract, it automatically becomes non-refundable in the horse industry?[/QUOTE]
In general, I would ask what the point of a deposit is if you can just get it back if you change your mind for no reason? Now, a deposit that is given pending results of a PPE might be refundable if there is a problem that shows up on the exam (just like a home contract can be cancelled pending results of a home inspection and the deposit returned), but that doesn’t seem to be what you did.
That said, it seems like by making the horse unavailable for pickup and final payment, relisting the horse for sale and having other buyers look at the horse you had put a down payment on, the Agent breached the contract well before you cancelled and, in fact, his behavior (not contacting you or responding to you attempts to arrange pick-up) probebly caused you to cancel. So, it seems to me (who has absolutely no legal training) that you might have a case to make that the deposit/downpayment should be returned.
Usually deposits are only non-refundable if YOU, the buyer, change your mind. Otherwise sellers would collect deposits then change their minds and keep them.
Do you have the ad placed days after you put down your deposit? What about a text saying they are showing the horse to someone else days after you left the deposit? And the last text where he states it’s a lesson learned?
Those put together for a judge in small claims should get you your money back and filing doesn’t not cost that much. No lawyer needed.
First however, send a certified letter stating you will be filing a small claims case if your deposit is not refunded in full by X date.
[QUOTE=jennycash;8158224]
So ultimately, if a deposit/down payment/purchase is never written in contract, it automatically becomes non-refundable in the horse industry?
If so, what else becomes “automatic” if not stated in contract?[/QUOTE]
You had a written contract, of sorts, signed by this person. It said deposit. It also said you were picking up the horse. I think a judge would see that as a contract – but, you said you no longer wanted the horse, so you may have forfeited your contract to buy at that point and won’t get the deposit back.
If the horse isn’t sold, tell them you will pay the rest in full and see what they say. Maybe you can just buy him and then problem solved.
A twelve hour drive is not near far enough away to keep me from appearing at Agent’s house pronto demanding ALL my money back immediately or them producing the horse with all required paperwork and proceed to complete sale. Of course, I also spent 5 hours on hold and on the phone with Expedia fighting with them and being continually hung up on over $150 refund I was entitled to…I wore them down and of course got my money back.
Surely the agent broke the terms of the contract first by re-listing the horse for sale and showing it to other people? It sounds like OP was trying in good faith to contact agent and arrange pickup and final payment, while he was busy ignoring her calls and texts and putting up a new ad for the horse.
You need to contact an attorney
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;8157294]
That was my one thought, Sansena, why would the agent have any knowlege of the horse’s health records? Or interest in them? Or access to them? I would think that would be between the owners, old and new.[/QUOTE]
If you are acting as a sales agent for anything (house, boat, car, horse, etc.) I would expect said agent to have a good bit of information on the product s/he is representing. I wouldn’t buy a car without knowing it had clear title and registration, and I would expect to have the service records on the car. Or, if not the records, the name of the shop that did any service/maintenance on the car, so I could check for myself. No way in hell would I trust an agent who didn’t have that information.
OP, I hope you get hold of agent AND owner(s) soon, and get your cash back.
Also, you might want to check the fraud laws in your state (or wherever horse is). Courts sometimes award triple damages if fraud can be proven.
(the aforementioned is NOT legal advice nor a legal opinion, as I am not a lawyer.)
[QUOTE=Caol Ila;8158340]
Surely the agent broke the terms of the contract first by re-listing the horse for sale and showing it to other people? It sounds like OP was trying in good faith to contact agent and arrange pickup and final payment, while he was busy ignoring her calls and texts and putting up a new ad for the horse.[/QUOTE]
^^^Exactly.^^^ Can’t complete a sale if agent/seller won’t return your calls/texts/e-mails. OP isn’t the one who breached the agreement. She should get her money back.
I really hope you can get your money back.
The agent can’t just decide you aren’t holding up your end because you asked a question. He easily could have just asked when you were picking up, or confirmed you were still planning on going through with the purchase. He can’t just decide you seem flaky.
I think the main issue is that without a pick-up date in the contract it will be hard to say what constitutes breaching it. In theory, he could have thought you were coming back the next day and you thought it was the next month.
If I understood the post right, you said you didn’t still want the horse because he was no longer honoring your contract price, right? In that case I don’t think that evidence is so damning since he is the one backing out first.
Not a lawyer but I don’t that it deposits are nonrefundable, if that’s the case why do contracts state - “nonrefundable deposit”. Also correct me if I’m wrong but in reading this thread, I’'m under the impression that OP decided to nix the purchase of the horse only when the Agent was not responding to her email/text/calls - t ask about the horse’s records (vet and show) AND most importantly to arrange t date/time to pick up the horse. It was a cash deal, no check made out to the seller or agent, cash in agent’s hand, agent could so easily pocket the cash and the owner/seller would be none the wiser.
I have never heard of a case where the deposit is refundable unless it’s written into the sale contract - ie, the horse is ‘sold’ pending passing a PPE within so many days. The balance would be paid in full at pickup.
I put deposits on 2 different horses, and discussed this and wrote it into the bill of sale. These 2 horses did not pass the vet, and I got the uncashed check back. But it did specifically say if the horse didn’t pass the vet check that I would get my deposit back.
For the 3rd horse (i bought this one), they didn’t want a deposit. I paid the full amount at pickup.
I did get full health records on the last horse I bought a while ago, and I got what they knew about the horse I bought this time. They had owner her a year so didn’t have a lot. I don’t think that request is odd, unless the OP was calling a LOT about it. I’d want to know too.
I hope you get this squared away - you should get your deposit back. But, you also may be SOL.
I agree. Agent broke contract first.
Contract was broke when they decided to show the horse to another buyer.
The fact that the agent ran an ad on the horse and is showing it to other folks does not breach the sale contract and does not necessarily show bad faith, poor morals or whatever.
This happens all the time in real estate with back up contracts. They most likely felt the buyer was going to not complete the contract and are looking for back up buyers. This is actually a good thing for his client, the seller.
Obviously, if the agent is selling the same horse to multiple buyers, that is fraud. However, we are only hearing one side of the story here.
The buyer did not have all the cash on hand to purchase the horse. If I were going to purchase a horse without any conditions such as a PPE and intended to negotiate a cash discount, I would bring all cash.
The agreement she signed stated she was going to come pick up the horse and pay the balance due. It says nothing about a PPE or a history on the horse. The next call the agent expected to get was “I have the rest of the cash and plan on picking up the horse on x date, is that convenient?”. Instead she starts calls asking for the horse’ s history, vet records, etc.
There may have also been something said at the time she bought the horse and didn’t have the full purchase price that lead the agent to believe she may not have the balance due. We do not know.
At the conclusion of the phone call when she scheduled the pickup and payment, the buyer could have then added that she was interested in hearing the horse’s history when she picked him up.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
