Painta-Pintaloosa's!!

[JB]

@belambi;4026024

Totally irresponsible.

However… not nearly as totally irresponsible as the idiots who are breeding pintaloosas using overo. (as in real overo OLWS pos).

The various appaloosa associations around the world have thankfully taken action to prevent the use of OLWS pos qhs and Tbs in app breeding… What is so amazing is that there are people in the world who felt that this would be an acceptable cross!

Maybe I’m not understanding your point here, so forgive me if that’s the case

But OLWS is absolutely fine in the heterozygous form.

Now if you are talking about the LWO issue, homozygous Frame, then absolutely that’s an issue, and should be taken into account ANY time there is a horse who could possibly be OLWS positive, whether he shows it or not. There are AQHA horses who are solid but who are N/O and should NOT be bred to any other N/O horse, whether that’s an appy or TB or QH or Paint or anything, regardless of anything else that’s desirable or not.

[Sonesta]

[QUOTE=JB;4026088]
Maybe I’m not understanding your point here, so forgive me if that’s the case

But OLWS is absolutely fine in the heterozygous form.

Now if you are talking about the LWO issue, homozygous Frame, then absolutely that’s an issue, and should be taken into account ANY time there is a horse who could possibly be OLWS positive, whether he shows it or not. There are AQHA horses who are solid but who are N/O and should NOT be bred to any other N/O horse, whether that’s an appy or TB or QH or Paint or anything, regardless of anything else that’s desirable or not.[/QUOTE]

I think the point is that the overo gene might be hidden amidst the appy genes and if you didn’t know it was there and bred to another that carried that gene, the possibilities of a lethal white foal increases.

[RiddleMeThis]

@Sonesta;4026123

I think the point is that the overo gene might be hidden amidst the appy genes and if you didn’t know it was there and bred to another that carried that gene, the possibilities of a lethal white foal increases.

Frame can hide when no other pattern is present. Adding in Appy genes wont change that.

No appy genes OLW positive
http://www.dreammakerminis.com/pictures/foals/full/stripepic1.jpg

[Tango14]

@SilverSpringFarm;4025163

That’s precisely why I said “If”.

Yes, it is extremely rare for someone to own a horse from birth to death but I do know a handful of people that have done it. I don’t know anything about the OP. I’m not fit to make a prediction as to whether or not she will ensure this foal has an excellent home for the next 30 years, but really who can predict that for any foal, even one with papers?

Without wanting to harp on the subject, I don’t think anyone is judging the OP on whether or not she as an individual can and will give the resulting foal a forever home. This is more far-reaching than just one foal bred by one person - it pertains to anyone else who thinks it’s cool to cross breeds which shouldn’t be crossed.

The point is not actually whether or not someone THINKS they can give the horse a forever home, it’s whether or not it’s PRACTICAL and ETHICAL in this day and age to think or assume they can give the horse a forever home. IME people do all sorts of things and think there is no accountability because their excuse is : ‘I thought this’ or ‘I thought that’ or ‘I never meant to’ etc etc. So, by being ‘‘polite’’ and not saying anything at all could cause other ‘experiments’ to be born which no one wants.

[JB]

@Sonesta;4026123

I think the point is that the overo gene might be hidden amidst the appy genes and if you didn’t know it was there and bred to another that carried that gene, the possibilities of a lethal white foal increases.

Yep, I understand

However, like I said, there are completely solid, not a single white hair, QH’s who are N/O. The mini that RMT showed is a perfect example of a positive solid. A TB is the same way - Frame does exist there. A horse can look for all the world like he just has normal leg and face white and be Frame as well.

So it’s not an Appy thing covering up the Frame, as Frame doesn’t have to express at all. Breeders need to be very serious about this and either make sure their horse is N/N, or breed to a N/N stallion.

There is no “increases” in the Lethal situation. It’s either there, at 25%, when breeding N/O to N/O, or it’s not there, at all, when breeding N/NxN/N or N/NxN/O.

[Tamara_in_TN]

@Sonesta;4026123

I think the point is that the overo gene might be hidden amidst the appy genes and if you didn’t know it was there and bred to another that carried that gene, the possibilities of a lethal white foal increases.

right…apps can pass moonblindness in the genetics and the paints lethal white…sure it’s be cool to have a mottled brindled splashy horse of course…

but if you bred the height of one world to the height of the other…what would you be left with…could it soar above both parents? or lessen the breed standard of both…

it’s a free country…and I’ll sell hay to anything even alpacas, but the conisderations are certainly there…

best regards

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4026420]
IME people do all sorts of things and think there is no accountability because their excuse is : ‘I thought this’ or ‘I thought that’ or ‘I never meant to’ etc etc. So, by being ‘‘polite’’ and not saying anything at all could cause other ‘experiments’ to be born which no one wants.[/QUOTE]

The OP stated that she wants the foal. There are 15 Pintaloosas for sale on Dreamhorse right now. The highest asking price for one is $15K for a children’s hunter. There are several others in the $2-3K range. Sure, there are some $400 foals on there too… There are also 992 QHs under $500.

We know nothing about the quality of the OP’s mare and the chosen stallion. Most people I know in the sporthorse world prefer athletic ability over pedigree and could give a hoot less about color. They would ride a purple unicorn if it jumped/moved well. If the OP has athletic ability at the top of her list then the fact that she wants a color pattern that I don’t personally care for is a moot point.

The OP isn’t the only person in the world interested in this breed combination. If she was breeding a mini to a shire I’d be much more inclined to call it an “experiment.” People have intentionally bred for Pintaloosas for some time. There IS a registry for these horses.

http://www.ipshr.com/RegistrationCategories/Pintaloosa%20Registration.htm

The OP wants a wild colored foal. She is not the first horse owner to breed with a specific color/pattern in mind.

[RiddleMeThis]

@Tamara in TN;4026594

right…apps can pass moonblindness in the genetics and the paints lethal white

Lethal white has NO effect (other than possibly putting a pattern on) in the heterozygous form. Its only problem is in homozygous form.

Appy moon blindness will be there in the normal apps as well.

If you have problem breeding a LWO to an APP you should have problems breeding ANY app and ANY LWO positive horse. Adding one to the other does not create any more problems than breeding an App to and App or a LWO to a LWO, actually it may even create LESS problems as homozygous for LP makes the moon blindness worse and LWO to LWO gives you a chance for a dead foal.

[JB]

If the OP wanted to breed her homozygous Tobi to a homozygous Gray, many of the Pinto/Paint lovers would be horrified

[shawnee_Acres]

WHY ruin a perfectly good appaloosa with Paint/pinto coloring?? UGH! Makes my appie skin crawl! LOL

[RiddleMeThis]

I personally think the right app pattern to the right pinto pattern looks INCREDIBLE.

Like this one for example
http://www.doublediamond.org/Stallions/journey1_2.jpg

[Sonesta]

nevermind

[system]

I have a 3 year old Paintaloosa filly. I get remarks of how greatly colored and wonderful confirmation this horse has. She’s a real eye catcher. She has shadowed paint markings and spots here and there. There is an actual growing registry for Paintaloosa’s and the Spotted Horse registry does recognize them as Pintaloosa’s. That being said SONESTA do your research…

[Sonesta]

[QUOTE=ridemgirl13;4068102]
I have a 3 year old Paintaloosa filly. I get remarks of how greatly colored and wonderful confirmation this horse has. She’s a real eye catcher. She has shadowed paint markings and spots here and there. There is an actual growing registry for Paintaloosa’s and the Spotted Horse registry does recognize them as Pintaloosa’s. That being said SONESTA do your research…[/QUOTE]

yeah, yeah. and there is a “registry” called “Blue Eyed Horse Registry” and “Grade Horse Registry.” How much value is there in those? How much credibility?

[Sonesta]

[QUOTE=ridemgirl13;4068102]
I have a 3 year old Paintaloosa filly. I get remarks of how greatly colored and wonderful confirmation this horse has. She’s a real eye catcher. She has shadowed paint markings and spots here and there. There is an actual growing registry for Paintaloosa’s and the Spotted Horse registry does recognize them as Pintaloosa’s. That being said SONESTA do your research…[/QUOTE]

I know. And I think that is just sad. Sort of like the “Grade Horse Regstry.” That one exists too.

[dressuursport]

Sonesta, for what it’s worth I think I know where you’re coming from and I probably tend mostly to agree.

[webmistress32]

a registry doesn’t certify the quality.

pintaloosa? quality? I don’t think so.

[Sonesta]

Let me be very clear. I am NOT a breed snob. And I am not saying that one or more of these pintaloosas cannot be decent sport horses. I’m sure they can and are. My problem is WHY would someone do this with all the very good reasons not to do so? And condemn a horse as a mutt that is very likely to end up in a bad situation.

Think percentages, not the individual.

[JB]

@Sonesta;4068640

And condemn a horse as a mutt that is very likely to end up in a bad situation.

Why is the result of crossing a pinto to an appy likely to end up in a bad situation?

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=webmistress32;4068615]
a registry doesn’t certify the quality.

pintaloosa? quality? I don’t think so.[/QUOTE]

That goes for any registry.

These horses don’t appear to be lacking in quality to me:

http://andolscreek.com/PIntaloosaFoal.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1309/9818764/17774068/355503637.jpg

http://www.ipshr.com/RegistrationCategories/Blue%20Moon%20Trot%20Left_0077%20Redone.jpg

This guy is currently for sale. Asking price is $15K.

http://www.freewebs.com/northernxridingstables/chunky.html

@Sonesta;4068577

I know. And I think that is just sad. Sort of like the “Grade Horse Regstry.” That one exists too.

Every registration association has to start somewhere. It’s not as if the RPSI was handed down to earth by god.

I’m sure plenty of QH breeders snickered when the APHA was formed as well.