Painta-Pintaloosa's!!

[Tango14]

Right, I’ve just checked the OP’s edit which I missed before I wrote my two previous replies so I’ll respond here. Here original edit is below in italics for ease of referral.

I bet any number of members of this forum could go and find her a ‘suitable stud’ for her mare - right price, right conformation, right COLOR. Being a solid Appaloosa is not an excuse or a reason to cross to a Paint. If you read up on Appaloosa genetics you’ll know that no-one can predict the color of any foal and even less so when you outcross especially to a Paint or such. What we DO know with Appaloosa genetics is that it can pop up generations down the line.

While I accept that you ‘do not plan’ on breeding or selling this foal, ‘the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry’ esp in our current (and probably long lasting) economic climate.

You also admit that you bred for COLOR, so all the other posters, please read this and understand. IME when someone admits to breeding for color, it’s actually first on the list and not last. People usually only list it last incase they get lambasted:) Yes, it’s a free world but who on earth would actually admit to putting color preference first?

As for these ‘Registries’. <l-o-n-g sigh> I don’t even know what to respond to that. I’ve checked out the horses registered and I’d rather not comment. I’m trying to go by ‘if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything’…

EDIT**I searched forever for a suitable appaloosa, tb, or quarter cross for what I wanted, and the price, and lineage. I didn’t find anything and this stallion is proven. I actually did study my mare’s genetics and the stallion’s as well. She is a solid appy, she comes from solid parents she is not positive for any genetic (him as well) predisposed disorders she does not carry lepard. So … seeing as how I am an irresponsible breeder I do not plan on breeding this filly when she is older she will be strictly show horse as she is exactly what I wanted I bred for conformation, disipline, atheletisism, and the odd yet dazzling color in the show ring. I made sure before I bred that there would be no problems, seeing as how he isn’t overo and doesn’t carry the overo gene my vet nor I saw any problems that should occur in the breeding after major research. I do breed paints to paints people don’t get me wrong but my daughter loves our solid appy mare and wanted a baby from her to have when she is sold or passes on so this definatly is a one time deal and we now have a wonderful one of a kind baby. The funny thing is you can’t tell she’s appy crossed just by looking at her hehe…so Yes I agree there are some very ignorant people out there breeding horses just for color and crossing overo genetics is a big no no however I am the wise exception to the rule. I didn’t breed without thinking, researching, or weighing the outcome of my breed. It took me over a year or two of research and stallion finding. I am a middle aged woman and my daughter is a very very commited teenager she will keep the horse and we have enough money to keep her in our family for as long as we need. BTW Thereare two registries that accept paintaloosa’s thank you very much, LMfaceO it kills me when people state facts that aren’t supported. I also checked to make sure I could get the foal registered before I bred, International Spotted Horse Association and International Colored Sport Horse Association, she is registered with both. Thank you all for participating in my forum . ****

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=Rumonek;4080928]
Well, Sonesta, I find you as an irresponsible breeder- I don’t like chestnuts. Why would anyone in their right mind breed a chestnut to a chestnut knowing very well they’ll end up with another one?!

My goodness. Would I ever breed an appy to a paint? No. But I wouldn’t breed either of the two to their own breed either- not my cup of tea. I’ve seen some pintaloosas that are beautiful, and I’ve seen even more that I find down right hideous… because of their COLOR but not their conformation or build. Looking through Appy magazines, if you took the cover off, I would never know that I wasn’t looking at a QH magazine. Her mare is solid- theoreticaly she is a QH (now, foundation breeders don’t take offence. I know there are those of you out there that breed for the TRUE appy) and I guarentee she has QH in her pedigree. I also know if someone on here posted about breeding their QH to an APHA there wouldn’t be this kind of uproar… so, what exactly is the difference here? By the sounds of it, one wouldnt even be able to tell this horse isn’t full Paint.

And, I hate to say it, but guess what? If these Pintaloosas are sitting next to a solid horse of simular quality at an auction… it will highly likely be the loudly marked horse- the one that stands out- that gets bought, not the horse that looks the same as 40 others there.[/QUOTE]

I barely know how to respond to this post:eek: The reasoning boggles the mind:eek:

I will, however, say about the last paragraph: 'Sure, BYB’s are always looking for the next big thing to make a buck or two out of, so sure, yeah, they’ll go for the colored mutt before the solid one:lol:

At the risk of sounding like a ‘breed snob’ (tough titties:lol:) I will also say this - some folks’ standards might just be a tad higher than others, and, some folks prefer to err on the side of caution for the sake of the horse.

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=RiddleMeThis;4080926]
“No good horse is a bad color.”

And many have succeeded as well. ]

It is not a color you would choose to have a horse, and thus should not be crossed.

The thing is this can go for ANY color. Black, bay chestnut. Any and all can look like crap. Any color can be bred horribly and end up horribly.

What does it matter? Would you ask another person to choose Stallion B over Stallion A because Stallion B is bay and Stallion A is chestnut? Color has no bearing on quality.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of repeating myself, MOST PEOPLE HAVE NOT SUCCEEDED therefore there are a lot of BAD horses out there and unfortunately many of them seem to fall into the ‘gosh look I made a new breed’ type.

We’re not talking about ‘any’ color here - we’re talking about someone who purposely crossed two breeds together which shouldn’t be crossed to each other. Color was one of the presiding reasons for this cross. Let’s not hide behind the excuse of ‘any horse of any color can be bad’ nonsense.

Your last paragraph is in total contradiction to the OT because the OP was breeding for some wild color - by her own admittance.

Actually, I would most definitely consider color in the equation when breeding. That would be a simple matter of personal preference however, and not controversial. Bays, blacks,chestnuts, grays - those are not controversial - ‘pintaloosas’ are. For jolly good reason too.

To compare a ‘pintaloosa’ with a solid color is, well, a bit odd. It’s not frowned on to cross traditional solid colors to each other as those are the colors which the breeds come in. Appaloosas and Paints are not supposed to be crossed. People who do, usually have the connotation of being a back yard breeder. Sorry if that sounds rude, but it’s a fact.

You keep going on about the color as if it doesn’t matter. It does, to the OP. She crossed for COLOR. She said so!

[RiddleMeThis]

@Tango14;4080956

It’s not frowned on to cross traditional solid colors to each other as those are the colors which the breeds come in.

So if the appaloosa pattern was in the same breed as say, frame overo, those would be an ok cross?

What about minis where appaloosa patterns and pinto patterns both exist. Is it ok to cross those?

Your last paragraph is in total contradiction to the OT because the OP was breeding for some wild color - by her own admittance.
And by your own admission MANY breeders, including YOURSELF, breed for color. Color can come in the same package as quality.

Breeding for or against ANY color is personal preference. I wouldn’t touch a chestnut, or a gray. I think those colors are quite ugly on most horses. \

You keep going on about the color as if it doesn’t matter. It does, to the OP. She crossed for COLOR. She said so!
She also crossed for other reasons. She didnt just say “Oh this is a pretty color. And so is this! Lets cross them together!”

[Tango14]

Nope, I didn’t say I breed for color - I said I consider color. There is a difference, if you could understand it:)

WRT minis and frame overos - what exactly are you getting at? I don’t see your point. If you trying to say what I think you might be, it’s nonsensical because the colors could never be in the same breed because the Appaloosa is a breed with a color preference and the ‘color preference’ does not include any Paint markings whatsoever. Oh, and last time I checked, mini’s weren’t accepted into the ApHC books… Most of these mixed up minis fall into the category I mentioned before - ‘created’ fads.

You are obviously very hooked on color and it’s a major consideration to you. Thought you said a good horse couldn’t be a bad color?

Come on let’s be totally honest, we both know color is, for most people who cross these two breeds, the presiding factor.

[RiddleMeThis]

@Tango14;4080978

because the colors could never be in the same breed because the Appaloosa is a breed with a color preference and the ‘color preference’ does not include any Paint markings whatsoever.

Both of these horses are American Quarter Horses.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Riddle_Me_This/Appy4yr4.jpg
http://www.pekolaranch.com/mighty1-22.jpg

App markings and pinto markings DO occur in the same breed.

You are obviously very hooked on color and it’s a major consideration to you. Thought you said a good horse couldn’t be a bad color?
They aren’t. A world champion is still a world champion whether its chestnut or blue. Its still a great horse whether its black or red.

Come on let’s be totally honest, we both know color is, for most people who cross these two breeds, the presiding factor.
So because it is the deciding factor for some means it is for the OP?

[belambi]

[QUOTE=Sonesta;4026123]
I think the point is that the overo gene might be hidden amidst the appy genes and if you didn’t know it was there and bred to another that carried that gene, the possibilities of a lethal white foal increases.[/QUOTE]

Yep.

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=RiddleMeThis;4080984]
Both of these horses are American Quarter Horses.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Riddle_Me_This/Appy4yr4.jpg
http://www.pekolaranch.com/mighty1-22.jpg

App markings and pinto markings DO occur in the same breed.

They aren’t. A world champion is still a world champion whether its chestnut or blue. Its still a great horse whether its black or red.

So because it is the deciding factor for some means it is for the OP?[/QUOTE]

1. I don’t know much about QH’s. Does the AQHA allow QH’s with with Appaloosa coloring and characteristics to be registered as proper Quarter Horses? Are they allowed in the Main Registry??

2. Does the AQHA allow one to register a Paint x Appaloosa as Quarter Horse simply because one or both of the Paint or Appaloosa has a Quarter Horse in its pedigree?

As far as I know, and I could be wrong, the AQHA allows Quarter Horses with Paint coloring to be registered if they meet the criteria for registration but they don’t allow Paints x Appaloosas to be registered as AQH’s. I was under the impression that the only acceptable outcrosses for the AQHA were registered Thoroughbreds and registered Arabs? As I said, I may be wrong, I don’t know much about QH’s at all.

3. You don’t get blue horses. You probably mean ‘gray’:lol:

4. Deciding factor? I thought I said ‘presiding’ factor. There is a difference. And the answer is ‘yes’.

[belambi]

[QUOTE=RiddleMeThis;4080984]
Both of these horses are American Quarter Horses.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Riddle_Me_This/Appy4yr4.jpg
http://www.pekolaranch.com/mighty1-22.jpg

App markings and pinto markings DO occur in the same breed.

They aren’t. A world champion is still a world champion whether its chestnut or blue. Its still a great horse whether its black or red.

So because it is the deciding factor for some means it is for the OP?[/QUOTE]

Maybe in america they do… But the frame couldnt be registered in Australia.

Can you please point me in the direction of the appaloosa quarterhorses pedigree?

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4081004]

1. I don’t know much about QH’s. Does the AQHA allow QH’s with with Appaloosa coloring and characteristics to be registered as proper Quarter Horses? Are they allowed in the Main Registry??[/QUOTE]

They absolutely are. After AQHA realized how ridiculous it was to discriminate against color and eliminated the “white rule” it allowed horses with any form of excess white markings to be registered.

They got tired of sending the registration fees over to the APHA.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reminic+in+spots

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4080916]
Refer to my previous post. The subject is actually about COLOR so let’s stick to the subject:)[/QUOTE]

Sorry to break it to you, but you’re the one that brought the issue of QUALITY into the mix. (Please refer to your previous post and the comment about the DUDS going through New Holland.) *I mean MEXICO.

It is my experience that QUALITY horses of all colors fair a pretty good chance of never making it to the auction block.

@Tango14;4080916

If the OP is breeding for top conformation as one or two people are trying to intimate, then : Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is the one and only stallion choice in the entire universe that they have? There is absolutely NO OTHER STALLION who could [conformationally] vaguely meet her expectations? The answer is obvious: it’s a color issue. How many of us can seriously swear that we’ll be able to keep a foal till the day it dies in perhaps 25yrs time? This is the only reason I am concerned about ‘creating’ more unwanted little lives. It’s a reality we all have to accept.

The foal is not unwanted. That’s what you don’t get. YOU don’t want it, but you are not the end all be all in the horse breeding world. How can you guarantee that any horse you have ever bred or sold will not end up at an auction? By those standards NO ONE should be breeding anything.

@Tango14;4080916

I stick to my previous point, and that is, many have tried and the majority have failed - to produce good looking pintaloosas. Why on earth go down that road when you can see the trainwrecks along the way? But then, I feel the same way about ‘creating’ new breeds from horse breeds which had no business (or reason) being crossed in the first place:)

I would absolutely love to see your proof that “the majority have failed.” You seem pretty sure of this.

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4080978]
Nope, I didn’t say I breed for color - I said I consider color. There is a difference, if you could understand it:) [/QUOTE]

Wow, condescension must really give you some kind of thrill. Your use of smileys is quite entertaining.

I know that every time I see a smiley in one of your posts I will find a passive-aggressive insult of some form preceding it.

But you’re not trying to offend people, right? You’re just voicing your opinion!

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=SilverSpringFarm;4081172]
They absolutely are. After AQHA realized how ridiculous it was to discriminate against color and eliminated the “white rule” it allowed horses with any form of excess white markings to be registered.

They got tired of sending the registration fees over to the APHA.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reminic+in+spots[/QUOTE]

So the AQHA is another mickey-mouse ‘anything goes’ registry is it? Shame on them!

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=SilverSpringFarm;4081189]
Sorry to break it to you, but you’re the one that brought the issue of QUALITY into the mix. (Please refer to your previous post and the comment about the DUDS going through New Holland.)

It is my experience that QUALITY horses of all colors fair a pretty good chance of never making it to the auction block.

The foal is not unwanted. That’s what you don’t get. YOU don’t want it, but you are not the end all be all in the horse breeding world. How can you guarantee that any horse you have ever bred or sold will not end up at an auction? By those standards NO ONE should be breeding anything.

I would absolutely love to see your proof that “the majority have failed.” You seem pretty sure of this.[/QUOTE]

I mentioned duds going through New Holland? There you go, making things up to suit yourself again.

I pretty much agree - there are a heck of a lot of folks who shouldn’t be breeding anything. Period.

The proof is in the auction lists where mixed up made up colored fuglies are to be found usually in abundance.

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4081215]
So the AQHA is another mickey-mouse ‘anything goes’ registry is it? Shame on them![/QUOTE]

So… A horse that has been confirmed by DNA testing TWICE to be a purebred QH does not have the right to be registered as such?

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=SilverSpringFarm;4081195]
Wow, condescension must really give you some kind of thrill. Your use of smileys is quite entertaining.

I know that every time I see a smiley in one of your posts I will find a passive-aggressive insult of some form preceding it.

But you’re not trying to offend people, right? You’re just voicing your opinion! :)[/QUOTE]

Now, now, stick to the topic and stop being personal!:lol:

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4081218]
I mentioned duds going through New Holland? There you go, making things up to suit yourself again.

I pretty much agree - there are a heck of a lot of folks who shouldn’t be breeding anything. Period.

The proof is in the auction lists where mixed up made up colored fuglies are to be found usually in abundance.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, you did not say New Holland. You said Mexico. Someone else mentioned New Holland.

I apologize for that horrific mistake. Perhaps you meant they were going to Mexico for a vacation?

Please direct me to one of those auction lists so I can see this for myself. I would love to compare the number of “colored fuglies” to the number of non-colored fuglies.

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=SilverSpringFarm;4081219]
So… A horse that has been confirmed by DNA testing TWICE to be a purebred QH does not have the right to be registered as such?[/QUOTE]

So… you still haven’t told me where I mentioned duds and New Holland?

Well I don’t know which horse in particular you’re referring to. Is it one, many?

I’m still trying to get my head around the AQHA allowing Appaloosas to be registered as AQH’s. That might take some time!

[SilverSpringFarm]

[QUOTE=Tango14;4081239]
So… you still haven’t told me where I mentioned duds and New Holland?

Well I don’t know which horse in particular you’re referring to. Is it one, many?

I’m still trying to get my head around the AQHA allowing Appaloosas to be registered as AQH’s. That might take some time![/QUOTE]

THIS HORSE

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reminic+in+spots

IS a purebred Quarter Horse and he is registered as such. He does not have a drop of appaloosa blood in his pedigree. AQHA is a CLOSED book. They do not allow horses with appaloosa blood to be registered.

There are other Quarter Horses within the registry that exhibit the same type of color pattern. It is a naturally occurring phenomena within the breed.

[Tango14]

[QUOTE=SilverSpringFarm;4081236]
Sorry, you did not say New Holland. You said Mexico. Someone else mentioned New Holland.

I apologize for that horrific mistake. Perhaps you meant they were going to Mexico for a vacation?

Please direct me to one of those auction lists so I can see this for myself. I would love to compare the number of “colored fuglies” to the number of non-colored fuglies.[/QUOTE]

You’re forgiven:) For that, but not for thinking it’s okay to cross Skewbalds / Piebalds / Paints with Appaloosas and vice versa.

Pretty much any auction listing will have a bunch of colored fuglies on it. Considering they are the SMALLER percentage of horses bred compared to solids, it’s shameful. It’s the one thing that strikes me whenever I read them. Sure you’ve seen some of them on Fugly, haven’t you? Oh, but I guess you don’t like the Fugly blog so you don’t read it…

This is what gives folks who don’t like colored horses REASON to be condescending and patronising about them. This is WHY there is such discrimination about colored horses. This is WHY predjuidice exists against colored horses. People automatically assume that if one breeds colored horses one has to be a total dimwit without a clue about anything. This is WHY those who are responsible breeders of colored horses trying to keep the bloodlines pure get so frustrated with those who couldn’t give a toss about it so long as they can ‘create’ their own ‘masterpieces’.