Parelli/NH alternatives

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=DragonBoy;9023443]
Thanks for all the help, guys! I totally get the whole thing of not trusting NH. Looking back, I’m realizing that NH isn’t exactly what I’m looking for. I know horsemanship is by feel, and what I really need is ideas for exercises and games to do with my horse unmounted. I want to be able to spend more time interacting with him out of the saddle, not just brushing (which he hates) and then riding and putting him back. That’s what originally drew me to Parelli: not the theory, but the exercises. A while back, we did some carrot stretches and he was more open with me, but he got very nosy with the treats, so I had to stop. I like the idea of clicker training, but any ideas on how to do it without treats?[/QUOTE]

This is what I see is the biggest problem with NH. The mindless games in a round yard.

You see very very unhappy horses in round yards. Horses learn really fast. They dont need to do the same thing over and over and over and over in a round yard.

I am English trained. I call my horse. He comes. I click (mouth not clicker) and we go to the gate. I say halt. He halts. I go forward and open the gate and click. He steps through. I say halt. I close the gate. I click as I step up to his shoulder and he walks. I say halt. I continue to tack and groom. I pick up legs to pick out hooves. I Iead as before up to arena, now with tack on his head and a loose lead.

In there is facing up. Touching all over. Standing still. Giving to a halter. Leading and stepping over when asked and working at Liberty.

All I have done is caught, tacked and entered the arena. 0 time spent on games.

I then lunge and lunge properly. I lunge over poles. I lunge with side-reins on. I work the horse. That is what I do unmounted. I do feed and rug unmounted, but no games.

[Alagirl]

Years ago my aunt was raving about Monty Roberts (that was before Parelli made a splish on the scene), how awesome he was etc.
That was in that whole other country, across the pond, his blankets had become all the rage among race trainers (or wannabees, never bothered to find out)

So I read the book.
The methods, well, meh, we had never beaten a horse into submission to start it, so most of that part was really not interesting to me.

But what was an eye opener was that he ha spend time to observe the horses he was dealing with.
I think that is the crucial point.
We tend to not look, nor listen.
Maybe we read the book and then are eager to try out what we ‘learned’ but we tend not to be quiet anymore, to just be and not do.

Of course, most of us will not have the chance to observe a full herd, let alone over a longer period of time.
But there is the value of silence.

You have to be able to read your horse.
Some have that talent, some others have to work hard to get to that point.

And of course, Parelli has gone off the rails her, since Linda?
but there has been a lot of ugly out there about him and his method. I would be ashamed to be caught doing that crap!
And I know my dad and my Grandfather’s spirit would haunt me.

But back then in the beginning, it was looking promising.
so in essence, you have to find old Practical Horseman issues, or really old videos…

[SuzieQNutter]

If you google the bit about him watching the herd is not true. He is a pathological liar.

He was not abused by his parents. Lies again. Lies to bad that his own family sued him.

He believes what he says which is why he is so believable. His methods have been around for eons before him.

He is a showman with his show based on other people’s findings, not his own.

[LookmaNohands]

TTouch is definitely the way to go! Many books, many videos. It is a combination of bodywork and training exercises like no other method. No round pen, no expensive equipment to buy.

Go to www.TTouch.com

[CFFarm]

You have to remember that any system or method is just someone’s opinion. Yes, there are many basic ‘truths’ to handling horses but no one way is best for every horse.

I think you can learn a lot just hanging out with your horse and observing him interacting with other horses and on his own. I personally think the best way to bond is to trail ride, just you and your horse for hours. Trust will come as you deal with different situations that come up. If you are not up for going alone it will take a bit longer but still a great way to learn to trust each other.

I’ve read everything. From Nuno Oliveira’s 'Reflections on Equestrian Art; to Desmond Morris’s “Horse Watching” (the latter a non-horseman, scientist) and everything in between. I’ve always gotten something from everything I read or watched and being 65 and with horses since Moby Dick was a pup, that’s a lot.

When you have a bit personal experience with your horse or horses you will be able to decide if you agree with what someone is saying or doing or that they have never met a horse like yours. Until then take everything with a grain of salt.

If I had to suggest someone I don’t think you can go wrong with Buck Brannaman (for hands on working with the horse), Jane Savoie (for basic rider training) and of course Nuno O (for inspiration and wisdom). JMHO

[Guilherme]

How many people have ever spent a day sitting on a hill watching a mixed herd of horses (stallion, mares, foals) interact? Not many, I think, because that is a time consuming enterprise in an era where time is valuable. Further, how many here keep horses in such an environment? 1%? Maybe not that many?

We did for a while and that’s how I spend one day a few years back. It was eye opening. Horses are not kind and gentle creatures. They do not love one another. Mares discipline foals in ways no human ever could. An overly amorous stallion will get kicked by the mare not in season he’s courting and run off by other mares who will back her. The alpha mare decides who eats, where they eat, and when they eat. It’s really a very pyramidal society with violence not so common but threats of violence very common indeed. There are also lateral relationships and high status horses interact with lower status horses regularly, but the high status horse determines what, if any, interaction will occur. It’s neither egalitarian nor democratic.

Way too much NH ignores these realities of herd life and substitute a Disneyesque view because it makes us feel good. It’s a method of horsemanship guaranteed to fail and get people and horses hurt in the process.

IMO NH is still an oxymoron.

G.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=tweed;9023302]
Really? Perhaps it has more to do with the disciplines, but I have kind of the opposite point of view—at the barn where I grew up riding (eventing and dressage), ground manners and ground training were very much emphasized. The first time I worked with NH-trained horses I was astounded by the lack of ground manners in general, and I had to do a lot of retraining with the horse I was leasing at the time.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. I guess we’d have to see some actual examples of each genre of horse to come to a conclusion.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Foxtail;9023327]
Likewise with my experiences. The difference IMO seems to be that traditional English trainers don’t make a big spectacle out of training ground manners. And making a big spectacle out of punishing what the handler perceives as an infraction can just make the horse worse. Used to hate turning this one horse out, who was trained with Clinton Anderson methods, because he’d freak out around the gate because his owner would basically smack him around for not going into the field “respectfully” enough.

Either that or NH people confuse a trained horse with a shut down horse. There’s a continuum between letting Poopsie walk all over you and leading a robot. A horse can be safe on the ground and still have some joie de vivre. But a lot of NH systems seem geared on producing a horse that’s nothing more than a living, breathing robot. I can understand how someone could be intimidated by a less sedate horse if all they’ve been around were horses trained exclusively in NH systems.[/QUOTE]

Well… that just sounds like bad horse training to me. One can find piss-poor pedagogy in any discipline.

OP, just keep your eyes peeled: You’ll know when someone has a horse that you’d like to handle or ride. When you do, ask them how they taught their horse to behave and think that way.

[Alagirl]

Well, I was not going into depth about Roberts’ bio, as it is largely immaterial to the point I was making.

[2_amp_1_2_Geldings]

I would second Buck Brannaman. I’ve watched his groundwork and under saddle dvds this winter and they’ve made a big difference for me. And my horse wasn’t/isn’t “bad”, but young and sometimes fresh. It’s been all about being quiet and soft and that’s absolutely what she needed. I’m also taking lessons fairly regularly.

If it matters, my background is reining/cowhorse.

[Dressagelvr]

OP, there is no system of any kind that can replace a good trainer. That person can watch what you do and give you the feedback necessary to improve.

I recommend that you go to some shows in your area and find a one. Don’t watch the show rings. Watch the schooling rings and the back barns. Look for healthy, happy horses. Look for someone who doesn’t use gadgets and is patient.

When you find some that interest you, ask your vet and carrier about them. See what other folks in the area think of them. Above all, go with your gut.

Horsemanship isn’t a book or video sport, despite what some of those NH people say. To get good requires action, observation, and good instruction.

[Paks]

I know books have already been dismissed as usless but if you are stuck don’t have anywhere to go or just want to increase your knowledge and get the theory behind feel, I reccomend Zen Mind Zen Horse by Dr. Allan J. Hamilton M.D. He is the clearest writer on the subject I have found and he does have ground exercises for the human to help them understand feel, something that is left out of most clinics as it seems to just talked about and illustrated but never really defined.

[Foxtrot_s]

NH is a false name - there is nothing natural about how we interact with horses when we take them away from their natural environments. The horse has to learn how to interpret us just as much as we have to try to learn how to interact with them so they understand as easily as possible.

[Foxtail]

[QUOTE=Paks;9024189]
I know books have already been dismissed as usless but if you are stuck don’t have anywhere to go or just want to increase your knowledge and get the theory behind feel, I reccomend Zen Mind Zen Horse by Dr. Allan J. Hamilton M.D. He is the clearest writer on the subject I have found and he does have ground exercises for the human to help them understand feel, something that is left out of most clinics as it seems to just talked about and illustrated but never really defined.[/QUOTE]

Books aren’t useless, they’re just best used in conjunction with a trainer, or after you’ve got some miles under your belt.

[J-Lu]

Having been down this road with a super reactive, well-bred, well-raised and well-started horse, I feel compelled to chime in.

IMO and IME, you cannot learn much about Natural Horsemanship techniques by reading books. It’s like learning dressage by reading books - can’t be done. My horse was raised by a woman who owned all Clinton Anderson stuff and applied his techniques to this horse. It did the horse few favors in the long run. Why? Because (IMO) recognition of signs and your body language and timing is key, and you just can’t get good at incorporating all of this on your own. The key principal of “leadership” was never established with this horse and he would was prone to melting down out of fear and insecurity.

Fast forward a few years, I ended up taking him to a Parelli trained (left Parelli), dressage riding cowboy for full-time training. This move likely saved his life (literally and figuratively). The cowboy taught him the process of learning, and through all of those Parelli “games”, the idea that a new situation is something he could figure out the answer to rather than something that was scary that he couldn’t get out of. The cowboy also taught me a ton about horse behavior, my body language, etc. Not the same stuff I’ve learned in decades of dressage lessons. I now use this NH stuff regularly with my dressage horse and it has made all. the. difference. in. the. world. Especially when he goes to a new show venue, stays overnight at shows, etc.

Bottom line, I think like dressage, you can’t learn NH from videos or books. You really have to establish a relationship with a quality trainer who has your sport in mind. THAT SAID, I would not recommend doing clinics with several of the big-name NH types on this thread. They are sometimes known to charge alot and not give a whole lot of attention to people. Well, most people… Find a GOOD NH person (I found the cowboy by referral through a top dressage rider in my area who gave him lessons) who can work with your horse type and help you move forward in your discipline (whether it be dressage, hunters, whatever).

My two cents!