I’d heard about Parelli (because who hasn’t) and had a positive experience with a woman at the barn who had a lovely well behaved horse. However, on further readings, I don’t think I’ll be trying it. Recently I managed to track down some of history and found out he was abused, which explains a lot about some of his behavior. It’s not particularly bad, but he’s still shy and resistant to being touched. I know some people can just go for it by themselves, but I’m kind of a newbie at this and I need some guidance on how to start out. What I’m looking for is suggestions on books/systems/etc that will help me build a better relationship and get to know my horse better, which is how I initially found about about natural horsemanship. Definitely open to different ideas about this sort of thing too, whatever works!
As far as systems go, I find NH on the whole (not naming specific trainers here) to be sort of lacking. I mean, for one, you can’t learn feel from books alone. I also find that there’s too emphasis put on the mental and not the physical. You’ll hear trainers spend so much time on “making the horse submissive” (which as a model of animal behavior doesn’t even apply to wolves) and not enough time on logical and progressive straightening and strengthening exercises. And at the end of the day, it works on negative reinforcement and positive punishment, same as traditional training, just trussed up in overpriced, gimmicky trappings.
So how do you get to know your horse better? Spend lots of time around many, many other horses. It doesn’t always have to be in the context of training. Observe them in a field, watch experienced riders at work, volunteer to feed, muck stalls, and bring horses in and out. And lessons from a qualified instructor on a good schoolmaster to teach you timing and feel. also a trainer with a fair hand if you find yourself in over your head with your horse.
There’s no harm in reading up on different systems, but there’s no reason to be dogmatic beyond adhering to the basic biomechanical principles of the horse itself. You should also read up on classical and operant conditioning, to fully understand how to motivate your horse, and also why your actions have the effects that they do.
I’d be glad to give specific book recommendations if you want, but I don’t want to clutter up half the page with them here.
Who was abused, Parelli?
John Lyons, Clinton Anderson and my fave, Warwick Schiller are good at explaining the principles.
[QUOTE=DragonBoy;9022273]
I’d heard about Parelli (because who hasn’t) and had a positive experience with a woman at the barn who had a lovely well behaved horse. However, on further readings, I don’t think I’ll be trying it. Recently I managed to track down some of history and found out he was abused, which explains a lot about some of his behavior. It’s not particularly bad, but he’s still shy and resistant to being touched. I know some people can just go for it by themselves, but I’m kind of a newbie at this and I need some guidance on how to start out. What I’m looking for is suggestions on books/systems/etc that will help me build a better relationship and get to know my horse better, which is how I initially found about about natural horsemanship. Definitely open to different ideas about this sort of thing too, whatever works![/QUOTE]
“Natural horsemanship” is an oxymoron, sort of like “reality TV” or “jumbo shrimp.” Why would a prey animal allow a member of the World’s Most Successful Predator Species to climb on it it’s back?
So from the get-go when you put a lead shank on a horse you are taking it out of the “natural world of horses” and into the very un-natural world created by humans.
None of this means you ignore what 2 million years of evolution has brought forth. It does mean you need to understand it and make it work for you. Parelli is the last place in the whole world I’d go for advice on how to do this.
There are a bunch of systems out there and each has it’s pluses and minuses. Lyons may have his head screwed on the straightest as he’s willing to acknowledge that he’s working with a 1000 pound animal that can hurt him badly. Some others seem to think of horses as large, hairy, somewhat retarded children that love them and would never hurt them. Horses are incapable of “love” but are capable of being trained. And their size makes them always capable of inflicting serious bodily harm.
Get and read a pretty good book call Evidence Based Horsemanship. Read about it here http://www.evidence-basedhorsemanship.com/ Get the book here https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008RDGJ84/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
There is NO “One, True Way” when it comes to training a horse. There are many ways that can work. Some are more efficient than others. It will take time to find the way that works the best for you.
Good luck as you go forward.
G.
Buck Brannaman is my fave. He trains and doesn’t expect you to pay $100 for a rope with his name on it. Great guy and his stuff works.
Andew McLean is an Australian - he’s no “cowboy”, but highly inetellectual and has a well regarded book out. He gives clinics all around US/Canada, too.
Personally, I think the big benefit from some of the NH techniques (and I’m not talking about Parelli here), is to make people understand that horses are not pieces of sports equipment or cars, but are actually non-human animals who have a non-human way of looking at the world and reacting to stimuli.
The “natural” part of NH Is, in my opinion, a reference to the fact that humans have become so “un-natural” or rather disconnected from the non-human world. I am constantly amazed by how little sense (common or otherwise) people display around other animals. If NH gets people to take a step back and consider how they’re interacting with horses, then I’m all for it.
Having said that, however, I would add that like any training “system” it cannot possibly work for all horses and for all people trying to train their horses. So it’s best to read everything you can, talk to other people about the books, hire trainers to help teach you as well as the horse, and generally try to maximize the number and kinds of training resources you have to draw on.
The NH-ish authors I’ve enjoyed reading include Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman.
IMO, learning a system will get you only so far. After that, you need some private lessons-- a three-way conversation between you, the horse and a pro who has the timing and feel necessary to make things clear to your horse.
Where newbie horsemen get into trouble is in the translation of a generalized set of principles to the (apparently) unique horse standing in front of them.
Yes to what mvp says. Learning from books and videos has real limits, since it is impossible to learn the sense of timing necessary.
Most areas these days have a locally reputable “groundwork” trainer who can work with you on the basics, and help teach you timing. These trainers often come out of a western reining or “buckaroo” background, or sometimes out of a “classical dressage” background; on the other hand, they rarely come out of disciplines like hunter/jumper, IME.
As far as developing a relationship with this horse, then you need to just dig in and do it. Don’t put too much emphasis on him “being abused” as determining his character. His character is what it is, and he may be a reserved, introverted horse to start with. He may also not expect humans to be giving him any meaningful connection on the ground.
You might want to explore clicker training to draw him out of his shell. It tends to make horses realize that humans might actually have some intelligence, and might be trying to communicate something with all those funny noises and movements they make. Teach him some tricks, and he may become a little more outgoing, and want to offer them all the time!
[QUOTE=Scribbler;9022788]
Yes to what mvp says. Learning from books and videos has real limits, since it is impossible to learn the sense of timing necessary.
Most areas these days have a locally reputable “groundwork” trainer who can work with you on the basics, and help teach you timing. These trainers often come out of a western reining or “buckaroo” background, or sometimes out of a “classical dressage” background; on the other hand, they rarely come out of disciplines like hunter/jumper, IME.[/QUOTE]
I come from a Hunter/Jumper background.
MVP: OOPS! sorry about that. I was thinking of the barns where you take a horse, put it in cross ties, ride it, hose it down, and you are done. I see a lot of kids (and adults) come out of the performance-oriented disciplines with very little sense of what to do on the ground to change a horse’s behaviour. And no one wants to “waste” a riding lesson doing ground work. There’s nothing inherently contradictory between ground work and hunter/jumper, of course.
Evidence Based Horsemanship, which was mentioned earlier in this thread, is excellent. Written by a horse loving neurologist and a horse trainer (Martin Black), as I recall. They did a presentation at Equine Affaire in Mass. several years ago and it was interesting and intriguing. That’s where we learned that whiskers really are sensory organs and should not be trimmed.
I’ve always liked John Lyons, Conditioned Response Training. Definitely carrying on the Dorrances and Ray Hunt. All you need is a horse, a halter, a lead rope, and a dressage whip as an extension of your hand. You can do ground work with or without a round pen. He also has done a lot of work on the actual riding of the horse, which is more than you can say for some of the “NH” trainers. I’ve seem him several times at Equine Affaire, and he is extraordinarily generous with his time and advice when he is back at this booth.
I agree the term natural horsemanship is misleading and I find many of the Parelli-Approaches horrific.
A system I’ve found to make sense for me for 25 yrs are Linda Tellington-Jones’ TTEAM methods. The results are easy to follow up on. I love the fact that Linda is a well-versed horse person and has ridden and even competed in many disciplines so she is thinking outside the box a lot which most trainers don’t (whether it’s riding or groundwork they teach).
The other thing about her is that she is always pro horse yet the techniques she teaches require no extensive studying (which let’s face it many clients can’t afford) nor fancy epuipment while they will obviously get better and better the more techniques they acquire.
What immediately turns me off is any kind of overdimensional marketing department, selling grossly overpriced endorsed tack by the truckload or requiring worship in the sense of a rigid multistep membership kind of qualification program. Nothing against qualification but there should be more required than just signing a paycheck and getting your ‘degree’ 
One important thing to look for imo is whether or not they prescreen their demo-horses at presentations. You will find that most of the guru-type people will while those who are truly horse-friendly won’t claim to work miracles in just a few minutes and will always adjust their approach to each individual horse.
In my opinion there is too much whispering going on and not enough listening. Because what most people are lacking is not the technical skills but the gift of finding out how their horse is ticking which is at the core of basic understanding. I applaud the OP for keeping a critical eye on the marketing-nonsense going on. Some of it is downright ridiculous and by all means in no way pro-horse.
[QUOTE=Scribbler;9022825]
MVP: OOPS! sorry about that. I was thinking of the barns where you take a horse, put it in cross ties, ride it, hose it down, and you are done. I see a lot of kids (and adults) come out of the performance-oriented disciplines with very little sense of what to do on the ground to change a horse’s behaviour. And no one wants to “waste” a riding lesson doing ground work. There’s nothing inherently contradictory between ground work and hunter/jumper, of course.[/QUOTE]
No offense taken!
I will say that some of the stuff I have learned from the NH folks was never taught to me by folks in English World. And I don’t think I have been at the very bottom of the quality in those disciplines. I haven’t been taught by people at the top 1% too often, either.
Generally speaking, the English world will put up with a whole lot of “not broke on the ground” that the NH folks train. It’s eye-opening.
And I think that a hunter could do with the level of lightness that the NH folks want. And any horse could do with the level of lightness in hand that they teach on the ground. FWIW, I think the way the NH people teach horses to give to pressure on the end of a lead rope could go a long, long way to helping the TB-type mind do things like cope with being asked to get into a horse trailer that scares 'em, or not pull back when tied.
I call it basic horse communication common sense. I know how they body speak and use the same pressure/release in training. It isn’t rocket science and the feel can’t be taught in a book or on a video.
I am also of hunter/jumper background
[QUOTE=mvp;9022887]
Generally speaking, the English world will put up with a whole lot of “not broke on the ground” that the NH folks train. It’s eye-opening.[/QUOTE]
Really? Perhaps it has more to do with the disciplines, but I have kind of the opposite point of view—at the barn where I grew up riding (eventing and dressage), ground manners and ground training were very much emphasized. The first time I worked with NH-trained horses I was astounded by the lack of ground manners in general, and I had to do a lot of retraining with the horse I was leasing at the time.
[QUOTE=tweed;9023302]
Really? Perhaps it has more to do with the disciplines, but I have kind of the opposite point of view—at the barn where I grew up riding (eventing and dressage), ground manners and ground training were very much emphasized. The first time I worked with NH-trained horses I was astounded by the lack of ground manners in general, and I had to do a lot of retraining with the horse I was leasing at the time.[/QUOTE]
Likewise with my experiences. The difference IMO seems to be that traditional English trainers don’t make a big spectacle out of training ground manners. And making a big spectacle out of punishing what the handler perceives as an infraction can just make the horse worse. Used to hate turning this one horse out, who was trained with Clinton Anderson methods, because he’d freak out around the gate because his owner would basically smack him around for not going into the field “respectfully” enough.
Either that or NH people confuse a trained horse with a shut down horse. There’s a continuum between letting Poopsie walk all over you and leading a robot. A horse can be safe on the ground and still have some joie de vivre. But a lot of NH systems seem geared on producing a horse that’s nothing more than a living, breathing robot. I can understand how someone could be intimidated by a less sedate horse if all they’ve been around were horses trained exclusively in NH systems.
Thanks for all the help, guys! I totally get the whole thing of not trusting NH. Looking back, I’m realizing that NH isn’t exactly what I’m looking for. I know horsemanship is by feel, and what I really need is ideas for exercises and games to do with my horse unmounted. I want to be able to spend more time interacting with him out of the saddle, not just brushing (which he hates) and then riding and putting him back. That’s what originally drew me to Parelli: not the theory, but the exercises. A while back, we did some carrot stretches and he was more open with me, but he got very nosy with the treats, so I had to stop. I like the idea of clicker training, but any ideas on how to do it without treats?
[QUOTE=DragonBoy;9023443]
Thanks for all the help, guys! I totally get the whole thing of not trusting NH. Looking back, I’m realizing that NH isn’t exactly what I’m looking for. I know horsemanship is by feel, and what I really need is ideas for exercises and games to do with my horse unmounted. I want to be able to spend more time interacting with him out of the saddle, not just brushing (which he hates) and then riding and putting him back. That’s what originally drew me to Parelli: not the theory, but the exercises. A while back, we did some carrot stretches and he was more open with me, but he got very nosy with the treats, so I had to stop. I like the idea of clicker training, but any ideas on how to do it without treats?[/QUOTE]
Clicker training horses without treats isn’t as effective as doing the same with, say, dogs. What I would encourage you to do if you want to continue with clicker training is clicker train you horse to quit mugging for treats. The gist is that you reward for the horse turning away from you. No treats if the horse gets pushy, and click and reward if the horse turns his face away from you. Then keep enforcing that behavior when you train other tricks.
<quote=“Foxtail”>
Clicker training horses without treats isn’t as effective as doing the same with, say, dogs. What I would encourage you to do if you want to continue with clicker training is clicker train you horse to quit mugging for treats. The gist is that you reward for the horse turning away from you. No treats if the horse gets pushy, and click and reward if the horse turns his face away from you. Then keep enforcing that behavior when you train other tricks.</quote>
Completely agree. Right after teaching that “click”= “reward” you teach what is known in dog training circles as “Zen”.
- Hold treat in a closed fist.
- Horse nudges hand, tries to nibble/lick/be pushy. Hand stays closed.
- Horse is a little puzzled by this and pulls back to figure out why.
- AT THAT VERY INSTANT THAT THEY PULL BACK, open the hand and they can have the treat. Extra bonus points if you can click at the very moment they back off.
Precision timing is EVERYTHING for this. This technique is the foundation of all kinds of other impulse-control issues and carries over to other people feeding your horse. It’s pretty cool.
p.s. I really like Warwick Schiller and his influences, Tom Dorrance and Buck Branaman. I also dislike the approach that some other NH practitioners have, like Clinton Anderson. I think it misses the forest for the trees sometimes.
