Parra and Helgstrand

[sascha]

@Knights_Mom

No doubt the problem is systemic but if two gigantic fish go down it’ll make the rest pay damn good attention.

Nowhere have I said that either of them should not go down. I am concerned, however, that if they do go down and that is it, then all the others will just go deeper underground. Perhaps those that are on the fence and have a small conscience will be swayed, but those who hear only the call of money and ribbons (and power) will still find a way.

Putting a stop to these 2 will only knock off the tip of the iceberg and while that needs to be done, there is a whole lot more to an iceberg than we can see above water level.

Think of all of the people/employees/clients that have gone through those two stables. Have some left in disgust? Absolutely and good for them! But, what about the ones that learned how to successfully (ugh) abuse horses and were ok with it? They’re not going to abandon lucrative methods, they’re just going to go more private. I mean I hope this would not be possible, but we all know there are lots of people that don’t have a clue and are ripe for becoming clients.

@Knights_Mom

There is no rehabilitation for them. It will just be an act.

Also, nowhere did I say that rehabilitation would be successful.

[Dressurfrau]

@Dbliron - Thanks for the half halt.

[mishmash]

I don’t know- burning at the stake would send a clear, concise message to those who abuse.

[Knights_Mom]

@sascha

But, what about the ones that learned how to successfully (ugh) abuse horses and were ok with it?

They’ll give USEF sponsored clinics and talk to children about flipping horses over backwards.

Sorry, my snark is not for you but rather for the situation. I can only guess what the right thing to do.

[sascha]

@Knights_Mom

They’ll give USEF sponsored clinics and talk to children about flipping horses over backwards.

Yup. I remain horrified that so many ran to stand in front of Prudent because “out of context.” Lost a FB acquaintance. Probably would have lost more if any others had been young/dumb enough to do likewise.

[sascha]

@mishmash

I don’t know- burning at the stake would send a clear, concise message to those who abuse.

Sure would! But think about what that message would be - not to you or me or the one waffling on the fence, but the one where that lifestyle and business strategy are already ingrained and perhaps the only one they know or trust.

It will not stop them, it will drive them deeper into secrecy which probably won’t immediately backfire because there are too many obtuse people willing to throw their money at anything that might gain them whatever it is they think they’re after.

[atl_hunter]

@sascha

Perhaps you should have more empathy for flawed humans.

The post you’re on about is open and public and also open to many interpretations. For anyone scratching their head wondering about this

Regarding Katie: her tone, direction and demeanor in session 1 were absolutely unacceptable. However, it should be noted that she returned for session 2 and was vastly different. Perhaps someone pulled her off to the side and gave her feedback? Perhaps people can be coached and changed?

I was not there so I do not know.

Katie is clearly a flawed human. However, she also very clearly adapted her style in session 2. Yet people seem to overlook that. Perhaps instead of tarring and feathering her we should work to educate people like her where possible? She changed her behavior and attitude. She is clearly trainable.

It’s really easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater - it takes more work to actually talk through differences and educate to come together.

As for the abusers Helgstrand and Parra (the topic of this thread), you can’t change everyone and it seems to be systemic in their programs, with ongoing history of abuse. We didn’t see that with Katie, though. Perhaps some do need empathy and education and can earn trust back? Others can have empathy but should still be held absolutely accountable, even if that means permanent bans.

[Warmblood1]

I believe two issues have collided and it is incredibly damaging for the sport. On one end, we have hyper-critical, arm chair trainers tearing other riders to shreds, often via bullying on social media.

On the other end, we have legitimate abusers in the sport who are big players and incredibly impactful, and their actions are being minimized due to the fact that some have been overly critical and have made mountains out of mole hills in the past.

I know one way I can personally contribute - support others in the sport who are clearly being ethical and kind to their horses while shunning those who are not. The solution is quite simple but it is difficult to motivate certain individuals when a great deal of money is involved. I use to believe it would be absurd to get rid of the equestrian Olympics, now I’m leaning towards eradicating it and I think that is heartbreaking.

[Graymaresrule]

The Olympics are prestige but other competitions are money.

[DutchSonofBell]

I think for Parra, the best angle is to go after his abuse of the humans at his barn. There are a multitude of women/girls coming forward with SUV type allegations. The holding of VISAs and possibly Passports is an allegation also. Unfortunately animal abuse cases are tough to prove especially with livestock. Look how long it took with Friesians of Majesty in Vermont. And out of over 100 horses there, only 13 to 14 were rescued. As too getting it out of the rest of the World Equestrian Organizations, it will be difficult as there is big money involved.

[Knights_Mom]

If he’s suspended indefinitely those horses will likely have to go.

[sascha]

@atl_hunter

We didn’t see that with Katie, though

I suppose seeing it and hearing her own words describing her training are indeed two different things.

It’s good that her public front is adaptable. I hope her behind-the-scenes behaviour is too. Learning (quickly! Yay!) that outward-facing image needs to be maintained/improved/changed is one thing …

[Dressurfrau]

I thought I saw something online that stated horses were being removed from Parra’s stable. Anyone know if that is true?

[Angela_Freda]

I’ve seen it a couple places, but not sure where it details.
Sadly I also read in the same comments that others were staying.
It’s horrifying.

[Bogey2]

so far 3 horses were taken out by the client.

[atl_hunter]

The biggest issue isn’t about whether Katie can change. The issue is that there was absolutely no oversight or intervention while this event was IN progress (although there may have been something between sessions), despite leadership in attendance. And that is the underlying issue with the industry. When the parent organization doesn’t stop an act in progress, then they are condoning it.

Can USEF change? I am not so sure. They are continuously behind the leg on topics related to horse and rider abuse. Attitude reflects leadership. When leadership puts a clinician like this in place, allows her to carry on as she did, then they are condoning it. They ONLY addressed it when they were forced to do so by an internet mob ready to tar and feather Katie. Interestingly enough, that effort was led by a dressage trainer (which in retrospect could appear to some to be an attempt to deflect from atrocities recently exposed in Dressage training by Helgstrand). But interestingly enough the abuse has been lobbed back over the fence to dressage now with Parra. And since the outcry over Katie was soooo loud, the internet warriors have responded 10-fold on Parra since he is performing significant abuse actively, whereas Katie merely mentioned flipping a horse.

USEF is not doing anyone, especially the horse, any justice. They have got to step it up. They are so focused on SLO that they have missed the point - we would not need to focus on this topic if they had a modicum of concern over athlete and animal welfare.

[sascha]

@atl_hunter

The issue is that there was absolutely no oversight or intervention while this event was IN progress (although there may have been something between sessions), despite leadership in attendance. And that is the underlying issue with the industry. When the parent organization doesn’t stop an act in progress, then they are condoning it.

Very, very well said! Thank you for this.

In regards to the tarring and feathering tennis game - I think we can keep up with the game and not necessarily lose track of one of the ‘players’ just because the other is having an even worse game.

[libgrrl]

SLO is very much a concern, however. I read in the comments of one of the larger “training” accounts a completely serious discussion about “rewilding” as a solution. That scares me too.

[Alterration]

First, Parra and Helgstrand’s abuse was awful and 100% they should be sanctioned and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.

However, there was a point made in the FB post there that I think is worth discussing. That so long as the system is set up in a way that the products of abuse are rewarded there will be abuse.

I don’t believe you can shame people out of it. I don’t believe that works. I don’t think you can scare people out of it when financial and power goals incentivize you to do the opposite. That, in history, has literally never worked.

So the systemic failures IMO, are more about incentives than punishment. While punishment is a useful tool in the arsenal, the emphasis on gaits has created a bit of a monster in competitive dressage.

[Knights_Mom]

@Alterration

First, Parra and Helgstrand’s abuse was awful and 100% they should be sanctioned and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.

However, there was a point made in the FB post there that I think is worth discussing. That so long as the system is set up in a way that the products of abuse are rewarded there will be abuse.

I don’t believe you can shame people out of it. I don’t believe that works. I don’t think you can scare people out of it when financial and power goals incentivize you to do the opposite. That, in history, has literally never worked.

So the systemic failures IMO, are more about incentives than punishment. While punishment is a useful tool in the arsenal, the emphasis on gaits has created a bit of a monster in competitive dressage.

You’re right, they can’t be shamed as they have no shame. But they like money. A lot. Take away the ability to compete. Take away any prospect of registering offspring. Take away any chance of any sponsor wanting any affiliation with them. Take away the money.

They will comply while they try to find another way to cheat. This we know.

But just because these creatures exist doesn’t mean we have to acquiesce to them. We make it impossible for them to continue in the USEF/FEI space.

And yes judges need to be held to task. The thing that kills me is that it takes a lot of training, money and work to become a judge. These people aren’t idiots. There are reasons they judge as they do. Wanting to be used again is a big part.

Judges should be ASSIGNED to shows. (Within their schedule permitting). This may help with judge shopping. Get judges who will judge to the standard, not to the whims of competitors.