Parra and Helgstrand

[Dressurfrau]

I have been absolutely haunted by the images from both cases and the podcast interview that St Georg did (in English and German) about the Helgstrand abuse. I work with a local rescue and have seen some awful things as well.

I tried to avoid the videos but did see the pictures. The fear, pain and confusion on those horses faces is unbearable. I keep thinking about how those horses must be so frightened when they are getting tacked up and when they enter the arena not knowing or understanding why this is happening to them. They must be riddled with ulcers as well. Each day is one of pain and fear.

I know there are people out there who try to have a “kinder, gentler approach” towards trainers using these methods and are asking for our understanding and “empathy”. Here’s the definition of empathy:

empathy, noun, The ability to identify with or understand another’s situation or feeling.

Really? There is NO empathy for these trainers - this is blatant abuse of a living being, one of God’s creatures. If you are a trainer and you’re not condemning this treatment of horses, than you are part of the problem, especially if you can identify with it. Our empathy should be towards the horse and we should be finding ways to help them.

I hope more and more people come forward with the proof needed to stamp out the abuse of horses. The fastest way for the horse sport to get dropped from the Olympics is trainers who participate in and condone this horrible treatment of horses. And don’t be surprised if animal rights activists start protesting at shows.

As people who love our horse partners, we should strive daily to be better and do better by our horses. Thanks for letting me vent.

[sascha]

@Dressurfrau

I know there are people out there who try to have a “kinder, gentler approach” towards trainers using these methods and are asking for our understanding and “empathy”.

Examples? Are there really people out there asking Joe Horse Public to be empathetic towards abusers? <- not enough emojis to fully express the shock of that if true!

I am the very epitome of people who believe that rehabilitation is always worth trying. I cannot imagine ever inflicting (or wanting inflicted) the same horrors on anyone no matter how guilty. However, beyond feeling sad that offenders were themselves abused/did not learn empathy at an appropriate age/etc., there is no reconciling horrors, no empathy. The ability to understand or identify with the kind of abuse we are discussing in these cases is just not happening.

Also, what does anyone’s god have to do with anything?

[Dressurfrau]

I’ll PM you the post from a pro.

[LSBC]

I am curious as to who is defending him? I haven’t seen anything.

[Dressurfrau]

They were asking for empathy for Helgstrand.

[Rackonteur]

@sascha Also, what does anyone’s god have to do with anything?

Just about everyone’s god teaches love of and respect for our fellow creatures.

Judaism and Christianity –

ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you;
8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish in the sea inform you.
9 Which of all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this?
10 In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind.

Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism – --

“All beings tremble before danger. All fear death. When you consider this, you will not kill or cause someone else to kill. All beings fear before danger. Life is dear to all.”

Ahimsa is inspired by the premise that all living beings have the spark of the divine spiritual energy; therefore, to hurt another being is to hurt oneself.

Islam –

“A good deed done to an animal is as meritorious as a good deed done to a human being, while an act of cruelty to an animal is as bad as an act of cruelty to a human being .”

[Dressurfrau]

Thanks, @Rackonteur. I don’t think I could have communicated that better than you just did.

[Bogey2]

She posted it on FB when the Helgstrand news came out. I was quite surprised by this because she comes from a well respected background of trainers. Her name and the post are buried somewhere in the a Helgstrand thread. I don’t feel the need to say her name but may visit her FB to see if she says anything about Parra.

[sascha]

@Rackonteur

Just about everyone’s god teaches love of and respect for our fellow creatures.

And yet … history. And abuse runs rampant in just about every religion. Please stop.

[Dressurfrau]

@sascha Yes, because humans are flawed. Pls feel free to not read this post if it offends.

[sascha]

Perhaps you should have more empathy for flawed humans.

The post you’re on about is open and public and also open to many interpretations. For anyone scratching their head wondering about this

@Dressurfrau

I know there are people out there who try to have a “kinder, gentler approach” towards trainers using these methods and are asking for our understanding and “empathy”.

Here’s the link being referenced https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1041125900563393&set=a.378841980125125

I personally would have chosen different words, but Sydnor fingers the fact that issues of abuse are better served by understanding them than ONLY by trying to eradicate them with laser-focused witch hunts. The problem is not going to disappear just by burning Helgstrand and Parras at the stake. It’s far bigger than them.

[Bogey2]

I disagree with this concept…no one is burning anyone at the stake. Helgstrand is still making good money and just tossed all his help under the bus taking no responsibility him self. Parra said the video is enhanced by AI so he is not taking any responsibility. So how will anything change when men like this are allowed to thrive and not pay any price? Hitler was kind to dogs so should we forget the rest of what he did? Of course not.

[sascha]

You misunderstood what I wrote. I absolutely believe that those SoBs should be held accountable, never allowed within 5 miles of an animal ever again, not allowed to influence young people/upcoming trainers, etc.

What I am saying is that expecting such an outcome (if only it were possible) to eradicate the problem all by itself is foolish. We need to look further (and I think here on this BB we are trying by looking deeper into the systemic issues), and we need to understand what things led those SoBs to the point they could be so abusive. If we don’t do that, if we JUST punish the outed offenders we’re going to be playing whack a mole forever because the system will keep feeding them.

[Bogey2]

But no one has ever been punished have they? I can’t think of a banning in dressage and our governing bodies don’t do anything to support a change either. So what do you suggest? I think empathy is not the right word to use for this situation unless it’s for the animals.

[sascha]

@Bogey2

But no one has ever been punished have they

Nope, not yet, but that seems to be what so many are focusing on and although it should be a focus, it should not be the only focus.

Yeah, empathy is not the best word, but thinking of it at sort of a clinical level rather than the purely emotional level we usually do, it sort of fits.

[Dressurfrau]

We may have a troll here (sascha) that is stirring up an argument and not providing anything substantive to this well-meaning thread.

[Dbliron]

Whoa, Dressurfrau! Sascha is not a troll, and I don’t think that broadening the discussion can really be characterized as “not providing anything substantive”. While I, on a purely emotional and personal level, would be interested in burning CP and AH at the stake, I have to agree with Sascha in that we need to do more than that. Punishment alone, which is pretty much AH’s and CP’s way, doesn’t work. Education, awareness, and positive reinforcement should be part of the equation as well.

[sascha]

@Dressurfrau

We may have a troll here (sascha) that is stirring up an argument and not providing anything substantive to this well-meaning thread.

Please, instead of trying so hard to read between my lines, do yourself a favour and read what was actually written.

[Knights_Mom]

@sascha

Perhaps you should have more empathy for flawed humans.

The post you’re on about is open and public and also open to many interpretations. For anyone scratching their head wondering about this

@Dressurfrau

I know there are people out there who try to have a “kinder, gentler approach” towards trainers using these methods and are asking for our understanding and “empathy”.

Here’s the link being referenced https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1041125900563393&set=a.378841980125125

I personally would have chosen different words, but Sydnor fingers the fact that issues of abuse are better served by understanding them than ONLY by trying to eradicate them with laser-focused witch hunts. The problem is not going to disappear just by burning Helgstrand and Parras at the stake. It’s far bigger than them.

Hell NO. This is not the first rodeo for either of them. There is no rehabilitation for them. It will just be an act.

This is who they are. Pigs. Egomaniac abusers whose greed validates the suffering of others.

I have no mercy.

[Knights_Mom]

@sascha

You misunderstood what I wrote. I absolutely believe that those SoBs should be held accountable, never allowed within 5 miles of an animal ever again, not allowed to influence young people/upcoming trainers, etc.

What I am saying is that expecting such an outcome (if only it were possible) to eradicate the problem all by itself is foolish. We need to look further (and I think here on this BB we are trying by looking deeper into the systemic issues), and we need to understand what things led those SoBs to the point they could be so abusive. If we don’t do that, if we JUST punish the outed offenders we’re going to be playing whack a mole forever because the system will keep feeding them.

No doubt the problem is systemic but if two gigantic fish go down it’ll make the rest pay damn good attention.