Parzival - hairline fracture?

[TB_or_not_TB]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8797359]
The owner was in an impossible situation, and I bet she had a lot of pressure on her.[/QUOTE]

I heartily agree with this - that is a hard place in an of itself.

I’m happy to edit the OP and update that NBC changed their report, but I left it and the FB thing so that others could understand where the controversy arose from if they heard these rumors as well, and see the responses about what triggered concern.

For those who do not think it is possible to break a horse’s jaw with a curb bit, I highly encourage you to do some research and educate yourselves about the equipment you may be using. The jaw bone is cradled between the curb bit and the chain. When pressure is applied to the shank of the bit, downward pressure is applied to the bars of the mouth and upward pressure is applied to the chin. Top and bottom of the jaw, squeezed together. Curb bits have a leverage effect due to the shanks (meaning, the pressure you apply is intensified dramatically), so yes, it’s absolutely possible to break a horse’s jaw this way. Think of a nutcracker - you wouldn’t be likely to break the shell of a nut on your own, but the leverage and squeezing allow you to open the shell. When a fracture like this occurs with a horse, it tends to be crush-type, not broken in half or some silly thing. That’s why it’s vital to have a curb bit properly adjusted at all times (too tight of a chain will exert more force, faster, and too loose will do nothing but swivel the bit in the mouth) to prevent accidental damage. This used to be common knowledge.

Obviously, in a snaffle or a gag, you don’t have two forces squeezing the jaw bone [in an opposing manner without much tissue barrier], so it doesn’t have the same crushing effect no matter how hard you pull (plus, no leverage in a snaffle anyhow). Additionally, in these types of bit, pulling back with force is likely to result in the bit being pulled against the teeth, rather than down directly against the more fragile structure of the jaw like a curb.#themoreyouknow

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;8797893]

For those who do not think it is possible to break a horse’s jaw with a curb bit, I highly encourage you to do some research and educate yourselves about the equipment you may be using. The jaw bone is cradled between the curb bit and the chain. When pressure is applied to the shank of the bit, downward pressure is applied to the bars of the mouth and upward pressure is applied to the chin. Top and bottom of the jaw, squeezed together. Curb bits have a leverage effect due to the shanks (meaning, the pressure you apply is intensified dramatically), so yes, it’s absolutely possible to break a horse’s jaw this way. Think of a nutcracker - you wouldn’t be likely to break the shell of a nut on your own, but the leverage and squeezing allow you to open the shell. When a fracture like this occurs with a horse, it tends to be crush-type micro-fractures, not broken in half or some silly thing. That’s why it’s vital to have a curb bit properly adjusted at all times (too tight of a chain will exert more force, faster, and too loose will do nothing but swivel the bit in the mouth) to prevent accidental damage. This used to be common knowledge.

Obviously, in a snaffle or a gag, you don’t have two forces squeezing the jaw bone, so it doesn’t have the same crushing effect no matter how hard you pull (plus, no leverage in a snaffle anyhow). Additionally, in these types of bit, pulling back with force is likely to result in the bit being pulled against the teeth, rather than down directly against the more fragile structure of the jaw like a curb.#themoreyouknow[/QUOTE]

A single-jointed snaffle with its nutcracker can indeed have a forceful effect on the lower jaw, so yes you do have two forces squeezing the jaw bone. Whether it gets raked across the teeth or bears down on the bars is highly variable. Same goes for the curb bit and its effect on the jaw – there are many variations. #thinkaboutwhatyousay

[Halfling]

Does it matter?

[TB_or_not_TB]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8797924]
A single-jointed snaffle with its nutcracker can indeed have a forceful effect on the lower jaw, so yes you do have two forces squeezing the jaw bone. Whether it gets raked across the teeth or bears down on the bars is highly variable. Same goes for the curb bit and its effect on the jaw – there are many variations. #thinkaboutwhatyousay[/QUOTE]

You don’t have opposing forces on a close area of bone, with little tissue to dampen the impact. I’m happy to rephrase it to say that. The nutcracker effect of the snaffle is mostly on the tongue, but it’s a great reminder for all of us to be conscious of what’s in our hands!

[candico]

I am not saying we shouldn’t be conscious of how we use our bits, but I have only heard of one instance of a person fracturing a horse’s jaw and that was a big man with a wonder bit. For sure I would panic if a horse got one of the rings caught in a stationary object or even if a horse ran off and stepped on the reins, but that is part of why we use leather - so it will break first.

But if you really think that 120 pound Adelinda could break a jaw by using too much force on the reins during the warm up where stewards were watching after watching the show jumping round where much bigger men with more hardware desperately see-sawed and hauled with not much avail… then I give up.

[LarkspurCO]

The “nut” begs to differ. The information I have studied, which includes radiographic evidence, shows significant pressure on the bars with the two parts of the snaffle, hence the term nutcracker.

Depending on neck and head position, the pressure will vary, with the pressure on the jaw seen when the poll is flexed.

But whatever… I’m not terribly invested in the discussion. Just taking a mental diversion.

I think most people would agree that most bits can do damage and cause pain in the wrong hands.

[TB_or_not_TB]

Larkspur, that is actually really interesting - I have always been under the impression it was the tongue taking most of the action. Thanks for the contribution! I stand corrected.

Candico, there was a QH trainer who was set down for breaking a horse’s jaw a few years ago with a curb, and I think there was a lawsuit about a dressage trainer in Europe as well (I think it was a woman but I can’t recall). It happens sadly on occasion. Back in the days of yore it was drilled into us that anyone could do so.by using too much force, or mild force with a tight curb. Not sure how much of that was to scare young riders into soft hands and how much was based on truth, but it’s not the kind of thing you forget! However no one said it happened in the warm up of the test - not sure where that came from? X-Rays were taken the day before.

Anyway, my question from the OP about whether there was any merit to the rumors and media conflict of information was answered, and now it will be for anyone who was similarly confused and concerned. I appreciate those who supplied information and the various points raised on all counts.

[candico]

Yes, the quarter horse trainer was the man I was referring to. Cleve Wells? I thought I read it was more like a gag bit.

The other bit of info that I thought was misleading not to include is that when Parci had the blood in the mouth, it turned out that he had a tiny wound on the underside of his tongue vs anything on the bars. The officials saw no evidence of harsh riding causing the wound, just an unfortunate incident perhaps caused by him biting the back of his tongue.

[Willesdon]

Why has this returned 9 years later?