Parzival - hairline fracture?

[Cowgirl]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8796049]
I did not want to jump in on this witch-hunt, and don’t believe the fracture story…

However, when I read it was a spider bite I felt very sorry for the horse. Perhaps AC did not realize, but serious, poisionous bites are so incredibly painful. I was bitten by a Brown Recluse and within 24 hrs could not even walk. I have experienced lots of painful things in my life and this, easily, was a 10/10 - I do not cry from pain, and this had me shaking in tears when I transferred from my friend’s car into a wheelchair. My friends had never seen me cry before and thought for sure I was dying. I am not sure what types of spiders are down there but to ask a horse to compete after a serious/poisonous spider bite, to me, was the wrong call. It explains his tongue out and obvious discomfort, especially during the collection work. I could not imagine trying to work 12hrs after my bite. It took me a week to recover to where I could do something physical and almost six months before the hole in my leg did not hurt on a daily basis.

Now that I know what I know about how incredibly painful throughout the body and not just localized to the area a poisonous bite is, I would never work a horse after one; not for at least a week. But that is my personal experience and I doubt AC has had a similar thing happen. Maybe people who read this thread will, in the future, give their horses more than a day off for a poisonous bite.

If it was something else, and we don’t know the whole story, I will stand corrected.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you and I was disappointed that she didn’t withdraw him immediately so that he could have medications instead of just ice and fluids. I was also disappointed that the FEI would not let her switch ride times with another team member, considering the welfare of the horse is supposed to be their utmost concern.

[Kolsch]

[QUOTE=cmdrcltr;8795878]
A good step would be for NBC to correct it on their Olympics page as that was the link one FB post pointed to to confirm that the rumor was true.[/QUOTE]

They did.

[Bem55]

AC has updated to say Parzival is doing well and enjoying himself and that there are no hairline fracture of any kind

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=keysfins;8795772]
Why are you yelling?[/QUOTE]

Because this whole thread is STUPID, and not worth the space.

[TB_or_not_TB]

I’m not going to change the title. When there are major discrepancies in the media about an athlete retiring during the Olympics for health reasons, it brings up questions. Especially when that athlete is an animal in obvious distress. Questioning those discrepancies is how we help ensure clean sport. You enter the arena in an international competition, your conduct is subject to review.

There are a lot of reasonable responses with good information on this thread. I openly admitted that the article I read freaked me out, which is why I asked for others’ takes on it. Hopefully if others have the same questions - which it appears many do - they will see the same thing and learn more. NBC has changed their article, and the poster who pointed out the other horse with the fracture was helpful to solve how the mix up happened. I’m satisfied that this is the likely answer.

The he incident does bring to light some interesting questions regarding team competition and national responsibility with regard to horse welfare, however, and I’m glad to see those being discussed as well.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;8795748]
WHY IS IT ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS ?[/QUOTE]

BECAUSE I RIDE DRESSAGE AND LEARN AS MUCH AS I CAN THROUGH LESSONS, SEMINARS, CLINICS, AND BY ASKING QUESTIONS WHEN I SEE SOMETHING I DON’T UNDERSTAND.

PARIZVAL’S TEST WAS BROADCAST ON AN INTERNATIONAL LIVE FEED, AND PHOTOS HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC. THERE WERE NO ADMONITIONS TELLING THE AUDIENCE NOT TO DISCUSS WHAT WE WERE SEEING.

IF I ASKED ABOUT HIS PIAFFE OR HALF PASS, HORSE SHOES, OR BRAIDS, WOULD IT BE NONE OF MY BUSINESS ? IF AC HAD SIMPLY WITHDRAWN FROM THE TEST WITHOUT AN EXPLANATION, WOULD YOU ALSO SAY THAT THE REASON IS NOT ANYONE’S BUSINESS ?

BTW I ASKED MY TRAINER ABOUT THE MOUTH ISSUE TODAY, KNOWING THAT HE HAS WATCHED AC AND PARZIVAL ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS FOR THE PAST YEARS. HE GAVE A VERY THOUGHTFUL AND EDUCATED RESPONSE. THERE WAS
NO SHOUTING, AND HE DIDN’T SAY IT WASN’T ANY OF MY BUSINESS. I GUESS IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK.

[Winding_Down]

:lol: now, now… Let’s try to use our indoor voices only now… :lol:

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8796487]
:lol: now, now… Let’s try to use our indoor voices only now… :lol:[/QUOTE]

Goosefraba Goosefraba

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8796487]
:lol: now, now… Let’s try to use our indoor voices only now… :lol:[/QUOTE]

lol

[Crockpot]

:lol: But to be fair I think some here were possibly exasperated by the bizarre and detailed nutter conspiracy blog - which arose from the NBC mistake- and which was spread all over the place.

Link to blog/ facebook article was included and referred to in the OP and seems to have been at least part of the reason for posting this thread:eek:
.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/chris-anastasy/on-parzivals-behalf/1427693783926472

So of course we all heard about Parzival’s retiring yesterday mid-test. My first thought was - how odd. I was under the impression that completing for your team, come hell or high water, was drilled into the Europeans. Then I read the spider bite story and thought, “Oh, how nice, she loves her horse so much,” and didn’t give it a further thought really.

Later in the day I saw multiple headlines that Parzival retired due to a hairline fracture. Here is one of the few that is still remaining online: “The Dutch’s Edward Gal holds the No.4 after Addeline Cornelissen and horse Parzival retire due to the horses hairline fracture.” http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/reca...and-prix-day-1

“Super odd,” I said to myself, “because I thought it was a spider bite. Did something else happen?” What ever, she did right by her horse. Probably a media mix up, right?

So then someone on my FB shares this article: https://www.facebook.com/notes/chris...27693783926472 I am decidedly NOT a conspiracy theory person, but friends… it kind of got to me. Something has been off about the whole thing, and now I have the recollections of warnings about too much curb ringing in my ears from my Pony Club days. I mean, the tongue flapping out was super weird in and of itself. Anyway, I’m sure I’ll get flamed as a pot-stirrer, but what do you all think? Any merit?

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=Mardi;8796375]
IF AC HAD SIMPLY WITHDRAWN FROM THE TEST WITHOUT AN EXPLANATION, WOULD YOU ALSO SAY THAT THE REASON IS NOT ANYONE’S BUSINESS…[/QUOTE]

Yes. I have no claim to that information. If the owner of that horse had chosen to make it public, that’s her prerogative. Besides, any semi intelligent horseman/woman could put together; bug bite and swelling with excessive salivation and an over active tongue.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8796049]
I did not want to jump in on this witch-hunt, and don’t believe the fracture story…

However, when I read it was a spider bite I felt very sorry for the horse. Perhaps AC did not realize, but serious, poisionous bites are so incredibly painful. I was bitten by a Brown Recluse and within 24 hrs could not even walk. .[/QUOTE]

The brown recluse is a horrifically poisonous spider! But… I am pretty sure they are ONLY found in North America (and only in certain regions), so it isn’t really fair to make the leap that he was bitten by that kind of spider.

I’ve been bitten by less poisonous spiders, had some swelling and pain, and back to work the next day. So without knowing the details, I think it is really unfair to this rider to second guess her decisions. She’s already being castigated on the internet because her riding caused a hairline fracture to the horse’s jaw - which is totally NOT true. So implying that he might have been bitten by a brown recluse is hardly fair.

I agree with Crockpot on this one - overall, the quality of dressage (the riding, the horses, the care and welfare) has really improved over the years. And this rider did the right thing for her horse with the information and vet advice she had.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8797122]
The brown recluse is a horrifically poisonous spider! But… I am pretty sure they are ONLY found in North America (and only in certain regions), so it isn’t really fair to make the leap that he was bitten by that kind of spider.

I’ve been bitten by less poisonous spiders, had some swelling and pain, and back to work the next day. So without knowing the details, I think it is really unfair to this rider to second guess her decisions. She’s already being castigated on the internet because her riding caused a hairline fracture to the horse’s jaw - which is totally NOT true. So implying that he might have been bitten by a brown recluse is hardly fair.

I agree with Crockpot on this one - overall, the quality of dressage (the riding, the horses, the care and welfare) has really improved over the years. And this rider did the right thing for her horse with the information and vet advice she had.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t imply at all he was bitten by a brown recluse. I think you snipped out the part of my post where I said I don’t know what type of spiders are down there that are toxic that he got bit by…

The point is, she said he was bit by a toxic spider. This bite was severe enough to have to have vet administration and she petitioned to go a day later - that to me is more than just a ‘plain ole spider bite’. Having been bit by a toxic spider, I stand by my assessment that I would not want work the day after.

However, many of the arachnids that are poisonous in Brazil are quite incredibly venomous (moreso than the recluse) - one of the most venomous spiders in the world is there, IIRC, called the ‘wandering spider’ or some such name.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=alibi_18;8796537]
Goosefraba Goosefraba[/QUOTE]

:lol:

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=Kareen;8795926]
I don’t see that it makes a significant difference for the horse. He was clearly not fit to compete after being treated with rather intense iv fluid therapy after the alleged biting incidence. How anybody in their right mind would even think of competing any horse at any given competition the day following a 40° fever and 9h of iv fluids is beyond my understanding. This kind of action if giving the sport a bad name and should be investigated to make sure it can’t happen again. It is almost as fatal as the Totilas outing at Aachen where he was hopping around lame throughout his test and was not pulled. Insufferable. As simple as that.[/QUOTE]

When the vets and the FEI give the green light and the horse seems normal with a normal temp, and you are at the OLYMPICS with no reserve rider, the picture becomes complicated.

We are not talking about going x/c or jumping 1.60m fences. We are talking about a light warm up and 6 minutes in the ring.

The owner was in an impossible situation, and I bet she had a lot of pressure on her. I mean Hell, she slept with the horse the night before!! No one can say that she did not have the horse’s best interests at heart.

She probably could have continued another 3 minutes and gotten a score in the 60’s, which would have kept her country in the team competition – it would not have killed the horse ---- but she did not even do that. She stopped and left the ring.

I cannot fault her anywhere along the line given this scenario and the pressure she was no doubt under.

[Lord_Helpus]

We do not know it was a spider bite. It was “an insect or a spider bite”. Suddenly people are talking brown recluse. Why does everyone insist on looking at the worst case scenario? Are you really so vindictive that you want to find evil wherever you look?

According to the owner, the horse was dragging her around and never acted sick (as far as I can remember). He was not as strong under tack as he usually was, but his temp was normal, without any NSAID to mask a fever. His temp was 98.6.

At home, or at a regular dressage show, the answer is easy. Under these circumstances we can be Monday morning quarterbacks all we want. But these were incredibly exceptional circumstances; she tried to ride him, and when he did not seem right, she withdrew. End of story.

[candico]

Just wanted to add how ridiculous it is that anyone was implying she broke his jaw by pressure on the bit in the first place. Considering the amount of hauling and hardware on the mouths of some show jumpers, in certain western disciplines, and what jockeys need, you would think we would be seeing broken jaws there first. Even when double-hand-ski-hauling-yanking a stubborn pony off a blade of grass, the last thing I worry about is breaking the jaw. You have to wonder how much experience one has with the horse world to even insinuate this.

If indeed a horse ever broke a jaw via riding, my first thought would be to ask if the horse had been on a Tildren regimen. But I don’t think that has even become quite the problem as some vets had initially feared.

[Crockpot]

[QUOTE=candico;8797666]
Just wanted to add how ridiculous it is that anyone was implying she broke his jaw by pressure on the bit in the first place. Considering the amount of hauling and hardware on the mouths of some show jumpers, in certain western disciplines, and what jockeys need, you would think we would be seeing broken jaws there first. Even when double-hand-ski-hauling-yanking a stubborn pony off a blade of grass, the last thing I worry about is breaking the jaw. You have to wonder how much experience one has with the horse world to even insinuate this.

If indeed a horse ever broke a jaw via riding, my first thought would be to ask if the horse had been on a Tildren regimen. But I don’t think that has even become quite the problem as some vets had initially feared.[/QUOTE]

right but the Op refuses to correct her post to reflect… um… facts.

That’s ok.

People are dumb when they prefer stories that confirm their biases even if proved untrue and retracted by the original source(nbc).

I am no huge fan of AC but this is ridiculous.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;8797064]
Yes. I have no claim to that information. If the owner of that horse had chosen to make it public, that’s her prerogative. Besides, any semi intelligent horseman/woman could put together; bug bite and swelling with excessive salivation and an over active tongue.[/QUOTE]

You may not have claim to that information, but no one would fault you for asking if they knew the reason why. I received a text from a dressage friend asking me why P had been retired from the test. Although she wasn’t watching at the time, she heard about it immediately and asked if I knew what happened. It never would it have occurred to me to tell my friend it was none of her business to ask such a question.

Thank you for describing exactly what we all saw: excessive salivation and tongue hanging out. I’m glad that you offered your opinion about it. I wish you had done that earlier.

But surely you know that since P has been going with his tongue out for quite some time, that specific behavior during his recent GP test may or may not be related to the spider bite.

[csaper58]

IF Parzival was bitten by a spider it was likely a Brazilian Wandering Spider. It has very toxic venom. One of the symptoms of it’s bite is priapism (in male humans).

A friend who is an entomologist hypothesized that, because he is a horse and bit on the head, his tongue was affected in a similar fashion.