Pasture breeding advice urgently needed.

[Peacefulpastures]

Hello all, new member here keen for advice from you wonderful, experienced folks.

We have a recently acquired stallion who was previously pasture bred with great success and who has always been extremely respectful with his mares and their foals. We have always bred mares in hand or via AI with our stallions in the past for reasons of safety, hygiene and control. We are having an issue with our new stallion who does not have the highest libido despite our best efforts via management and nutrition. He is very slow to jump the mares in hand and, when he does, we are not confident that he is ejaculating fully and we’ve not been able to achieve a pregnancy via this means. Our vet and ourselves feel that the obvious next move would be to allow him to run out with his mares in order for him to continue doing things the way he knows, his pregnancy rates have been excellent via this method in the past.

However, as we have several visiting mares expected throughout the course of the season a typical, consistent herd situation is not going to be possible and this, of course, makes us nervous! We all know how much these boys like routine and consistency and that aggression issues can arise when mares are taken from the stallion and swapped round etc. We will be in a situation in which we have to run him with one or two mares and, upon them going out of season, remove these mares and introduce new ones.

We are trying to formulate a plan as to how to do this safely and with minimal upset to the stallion. While I know all stallions and situations differ, would we be wiser to keep the stallion in the same paddock and then, upon him getting them in foal, remove him followed by the mares and then introduce him back into the same paddock with a new group of girls? Or should we move the stallion to various small harems in different paddocks on different parts of the property? We know our situation is not ideal and we are disappointed that in hand cover is not working out with this boy. Obviously trying to liaise for all the mares to come at once is not possible for multiple reasons, not least because we have not got the largest paddocks (two acre paddocks basically so really the stallion with one or two mares max so they have their room is our limitation.)

Any advice and tips on this situation would be so very much appreciated. Kind thanks all.

[Zuri]

I dont know if you are breeding TBs, so please excuse my questions. Is having him collected at a vet clinic out of the question or using one of those “dummies” that I have seen pics of? I am a novice at breeding so I don’t have a suggestion. I too have only known fresh/frozen AI and in hand. Best of luck to you. Someone will know the answer!

[Peacefulpastures]

Thank you Zuri, not TBs here so the AI thing is not an issue. We are set up for AI here but with his low libido we have had zero joy in encouraging him to jump the dummy mare ourselves. He was collected from in the past after a great, great deal of effort at the clinic but he did not prove to freeze well so sadly we have exhausted our options.

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

I had a younger TB that was like this. As he matured he eventually was better about it. What helped was to keep him completely away from mares for a few days, so when he did see them he would get excited.

[Peacefulpastures]

My boy is 12 and just very, very laid back! Not sure he’ll grow out of this one sadly.

Ultimately I’d be hugely appreciative of any advice/experiences pertaining to running a stallion with two separate small herds of mares during the season and the best way of handling it for his safety and that of the mares.

[ewells]

Previous threds on Pasture breeding maybe some info there
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?423170-An-interesting-article-on-pasture-breeding&highlight=Pasture+Breeding

[ewells]

and another
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?396190-Pasture-breeding-questions&highlight=Pasture+Breeding

[Kyzteke]

In general it is not advised to introduce new mares to a herd. Not only do they take alot of grief from the other mares, but sometimes the stallion himself will reject them. And, speaking as a mare owner (and former stallion owner), I would certainly not want my mare tossed into a herd with a bunch of strange mares while she is being bred.

I think we need more details as to how long you have been trying to breed this stallion “in-hand”, what the exact set up is (where is he kept inbetween breedings, how close are mares to him normally, etc) and how long he has been at your place.

But just off the top of my head I would say it would probably be best to separated him permanently from mares (although he SHOULD have company…maybe a gelding or one pregnant mare?).

Then as each mare comes into season you could try either putting each individual mare in w/him, then pulling her out when she is covered or having a separate paddock (Large) that is the “breeding paddock”, where you put both the stallion & the mare in heat loose for a day or two to get her bred.

If he was doing fine getting mares pregnant in a herd, then he should be able to get them pregnant now…however, how long has it been since he was doing this? Have you had a breeding soundness exam done on him recently just to rule out other issues?

[cyriz_s_mom]

I think you may not be getting a lot of responses, because few breeders here pasture breed.

I know that New Bolton has done a lot of research on stallion behaviour in different herd situations. You might consider calling them and seeing what they might suggest.

I did see an interesting set-up a few years ago where they had the stallion in a paddock with smaller paddocks (really just large runs maybe 20x40) where the mares were individually. They would watch the mares and when they started teasing, the mares would be put in with him for a couple of days. It seemed to work okay for them.

[HorseKrazy]

^^that seems like a clever way to resolve this issue.

[K_2]

Have you tried collecting off a jump mare?

When I was in college we had an arab stallion that would not collect off the dummy, but would collect off a mare.

[ColouredHorsesDownUn]

My mare was pasture bred for her last pregnancy. The stallion was kept in His paddock, and the mares were either brought to his gate to be teased (outside mares) or paddocked across from him and monitored for oestrus signs. When they were receptive, they spent a night or two in the paddock, then decamped home when they were no longer interested in him. He was excellent with the mares and had good fertility rates this way.

[Peacefulpastures]

Thank you all VERY kindly for your comments, it is very much appreciated! You folks are great.

Kyzteke, the situation we are avoiding at this point is running him with a large group of mares as we totally appreciate it would be asking for trouble establishing a herd and then adding them/taking them away.

Our plan is to scan the mares to determine when they have a good sized follicle (and not just go by teasing alone to determine oestrus) in order to be able to run them with him for a couple of days at most to limit the potential for accidents. He will run with one or two mares at a time before the mares are removed from the paddock to scan them again and determine that they have ovulated. In fact, ColouredHorsesDownUnder, that is our exact set up. Our property is split up into smaller paddocks and our own mares are turned out in paddocks next to the stallion so we can watch for signs of them being season. He is kept in his paddock alone with mares around him in neighbouring paddocks for company.

I suppose a greater questions pertains to our boy’s libido and why he is so reluctant to cover in hand but my suspicion is that he is the type who knows exactly when a mare smells exactly ‘right’ and prefers to cover at his own pace as its what he has always known. He is the sort of stallion you can literally stand near a mare in season and groom quietly, we’ve never had a boy so lad back and ‘un-stalliony’ like this before. It takes a great deal of teasing and time for him to jump a mare in hand and though we see some signs of ejaculation (tail pumping, occasional flowering of the penis and some evidence of gel upon dismounting) we are not convinced that he is ejaculating fully or even at all in hand so we don’t feel using a jump mare to collect from him at this point is going to help (and, to boot, we don’t have the staff or resources here for that.) His previous owners observed excellent pregnancy rates pasture breeding, 100% of mares stopped in fact, and very poor pregnancy rates hand breeding. We plan to do some investigations into this later on in the season at an AI centre but for now we need to get these mares in foal.

Would the general consensus be that mares should be introduced into HIS paddock where he is comfortable and we could keep his routine the same as opposed to relocating him to a separate breeding paddock with new mares? Our issue is limited grazing so we do have to move him and the mares around the property.

[siegi_b]

Ideally you would have a paddock dedicated to breeding only… That way the stallion would know what his job is when you lead him there. Some folks use a special halter and the boy knows what’s coming up just from that (pardon the pun). Good luck!

[Peacefulpastures]

Thank you siegi b. Actually that would make life easier for us.

Once again thank you all so much, you have been so helpful and I appreciate it enormously.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Peacefulpastures;7538920]

Would the general consensus be that mares should be introduced into HIS paddock where he is comfortable and we could keep his routine the same as opposed to relocating him to a separate breeding paddock with new mares? Our issue is limited grazing so we do have to move him and the mares around the property.[/QUOTE]

Yes, like I said in my first post. If he is comfortable with having mares near him but not WITH him (strictly for company) and doesn’t do alot of fence pacing, etc., then the best thing would simply be to put the mares in with him when they are ready. ’

Personally, I would be prepared to leave them a day or two, since he seems to want to get to know them before breeding.

Then, when breeding season is over, you could turn him loose w/1-2 pregnant mares. I am a firm believer that stallions need company and this is the life he is use to.

As for why he is so reluctant to breed in hand…could be he was badly handled prior. Could be a number of things.

Susan McDonnell is a specialist in stallion behavior at New Bolton…I would contact her about this issue and perhaps get it “fixed” for next year. Could just be a re-training issue.

But for this year, I would simply follow the idea of putting one mare at a time in with him. Be aware that (IME) a dominant mare will sometimes chases a more submissive mare away from “her” stallion if both are in season and the MARE will actually prevent the other mare from being bred, so close monitoring is very important.

I saw this happen afew times with my stallion…

Good luck…I think in time you will be thrilled to have a stallion that is not a fire breathing dragon…

[Peacefulpastures]

Thank you Kyzreke! Yes its hugely ironic, all my stallions in the past have been hot heads around mares and I thought this new boy would be a huge breath of fresh air in comparison but actually his laid back antics have caused me a great deal of anxiety! Gone are the days of stud chains here, you could walk this boy past a mare raging in season in just a halter and all he’ll do is mutter “hi” to her softly. I miss having “I’m the man” type stallions who would get aroused, jump on and get the job done but I must say, when we finally settle into the routine with this new boy I think his sweet nature will be a delight.

Well, the boy is out with the mare and all is calm, the only thing I have to watch is that he chases her off the hay so I have spread it out and given her lots of room. I’ve seen him jump her once with no erection and leave it at that. I have a feeling he is the sort of stallion who needs absolute quiet and privacy and I will likely not see him actual do the job.

I will contact Susan McDonnell, thanks for the tip.

[Kyzteke]

Actually per wild horse studies, stallions often do a “test run” with mares…mounting them afew times without an erection to make SURE they are ready. They aren’t stupid…don’t want to get kicked in the Money Maker.:winkgrin:

So that actually isn’t abnormal.

As for watching…you could always put up a camera.

I had this old, war-horse Arab stallion who had been a pasture stallion most of his life. I leased him (at age 18) as a teaser, but I was allowed to get 2 breedings from him.

Well, I wanted to breed one of my Teke mares to him (a maiden), but she threw an absolute FIT when he tried to cover her (hand breeding)…she pulled away from me and just about dragged me across the pasture.

So I just pulled her halter and let her in with him. Of course the stud went after her. She ran, he chased. In the week I left them together, I NEVER saw them within 50 ft of each other. Every day he’d be standing in one corner (this was like 3 acres), and she’d be in the other; him panting like he’s just finished Tevis and her trembling like a ravished virgin.

Finally in disgust I pulled her out. But somewhere, sometime, that old man got the job done…they had a lovely filly together.

So chances are he knows his job…do a preg check in 14-17 days and see what happens.

I’d be curious to know how it goes myself.

[Peacefulpastures]

Thank you Kyzteke! Fingers crossed, nature does know best doesn’t it!

[camohn]

Having had a TB stallion before with a couple problem mares: he lived out in a fixed band with my own mares but I didn’t want outside mares to come and go from my own herd. So, we mostly tried to hand breed outside mares but there were a couple problem children. Ones that were difficult to get to accept a stallion mounting, even in heat would need to be teased forverer and ever before they would let him mount. It got really old! So I did go to pasture breeding in a small paddock with them. He was respectful of a mare saying no so he would just trail after them for ages (it took a couple hours) until they decided they would stand and quit lifting a foot and skittering off and stand for him. One would stand all by herself at that point. the other was still squirmy but would stand if held at that point. Since squirmy was a difficult breeder that way her owner sent her back the following season as well. The third year (after she had 2 foals from our stallion) the MO had gotten her own TB stallion and was having issues getting her bred and called to ask how we managed it. So…the short answer: we put the outside mare in a different paddock from my band.