Patience Pole

[BaroquePony]

Posted by mbm:

you would rather tie a horse to a solid object with a solid halter and let it flip out and possibly do tremendous damage to itself

I don’t think anyone was saying that this is the way to go about it. In my experience wild horses or very bratty ones will fight for a short time and it is up to the person at the other end of the rope to allow some slippage.

ETA: there are different degrees of BRAT … Extreme Brat, Ultra Brat, semi brat, maybe I’m a brat but I am only a woosey brat … woosey brats can usually be tied without causing themselves any harm, they just act up but don’t really sit back and try to break things.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4611177]
I don’t think anyone was saying that this is the way to go about it. In my experience wild horses or very bratty ones will fight for a short time and it is up to the person at the other end of the rope to allow some slippage.

.[/QUOTE]

okay that makes sense… but how does someone allow slippage if they aren’t even near the horse?

there have been several posts saying that they will tie the horse to <fill in the blank> and walk away.

and fwiw, my horse learned to fear tying from cross ties

but on the brighter side it has been a very good insight for me into how horses learn.

[mbm]

BP: the assumption seems to be that the horse wants to break something.

what if they are just blind panicking? because that is what i have seen… horse hits line and panics because it is trapped.

that is why i do not understand the theory of letting them fight… all it does is make them panic more and show them how right they were to be afraid in the first place and if they are allowed to fight them can and do hurt themselves.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by Carol Ames:

Is it the reaction to pull back when they feel pressure:eek:?; fear of things moving behind:eek: them? or, another problem;)?

I believe it is the horse’s natural instinct to ALWAYS react to pressure by moving into it (against it). I think it may have to do with holding thier own space in a group (galloping). It is true on the ground when you first ask an untrained horse to move over in the stall or in the aisle. They must be taught to act against their natural instinct. That is true of riding them also. They must learn to move away from the leg.

They also panic when confronted with an unknown pressure … could be they think it is some kind of weird predator.

[BaroquePony]

mbm,

The people that are saying ‘just tie the horse and walk away’ also stated that they go hide behind a tree to keep an eye on things AND that it is with horses that are already kind of trained but just being woosey brats ie. pawing, futzing around, jumping up and down in place … these are not the Extreme Brats or the horses off of the range types. These woosey brats are not panicky, they are impatient and being obnoxious, but not endangering themselves and you already know them well enough that you pretty much know they are not going to do anything extreme.

The Extreme Brats and the Ultra Brats, as well as the totally unhandled by man wild horses, should never be tied hard. EVER. They need to have experienced well timed give and take. The 1" cotton rope should NOT hurt or cause pain. If you have the leverage of wrapping the long rope around the post (only one or a half wrap) then you can reel them in and let them out according to how much of a fit they are throwing. You can actually throw them off balance a tad when you let it slip a few inches. You can talk to them and sooth them.

If they are panicking, letting the rope out by an inch or two will take them off gaurd and both of you can regroup. They will stop panicking if they get an inch or two of slack. But you do want to keep taking that slack back again. Eventually they will begin to walk forward and give to the pressure.

ETA: a panicking horse will break anything that’s in the way … you, the barn, the trailer … it is up to the trainer to read the horse and the situation … you need to get to know the horse that you are working with and take precautions on the way to reaching your goal … a trained horse that has not been damaged and a trainer that has not been damaged. You start with raw material and biuld up trust. Then you can avoid most situations that cause panic.

[MoonPie730]

I think something to point out is that horses are large animals and I can think of a thousand different ways that they can possibly kill/injure themselves.

Tying is dangerous period. BUT tying is also essential in a lot of situations. If you can get by with ground tying or whatever method you employ, great. At this point, I am looking for the safest way to tie my horse because I am somebody that relies on it and uses it. It’s important to me that my horse learns the skill of being patient because I am confident that she can learn to tie patiently without killing herself.

As somebody stated on here earlier, it can be just as a dangerous for a horse to get loose if the halter breaks as it is if the halter doesn’t break and they continue pulling.

I am sure that you can find stories about horses getting hurt with hobbles, getting loose with hooker ties, etc just as you can with them getting hurt tying. Horses get hurt all the time trailering, riding, leading, and so on. We don’t stop doing these things, we just find different ways to deal with our horses and make it as safe for them as possible.

[mbm]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4611203]

The Extreme Brats and the Ultra Brats, as well as the totally unhandled by man wild horses, should never be tied hard. EVER. They need to have experienced well timed give and take.

If they are panicking, letting the rope out by an inch or two will take them off gaurd and both of you can regroup. They will stop panicking if they get an inch or two of slack. But you do want to keep taking that slack back again. Eventually they will begin to walk forward and give to the pressure.

ETA: a panicking horse will break anything that’s in the way … you, the barn, the trailer … it is up to the trainer to read the horse and the situation … you need to get to know the horse that you are working with and take precautions on the way to reaching your goal … a trained horse that has not been damaged and a trainer that has not been damaged. You start with raw material and biuld up trust. Then you can avoid most situations that cause panic.[/QUOTE]

yup. this i agree with 100%. and this will be the method i apply as i re-teach my horse to tie.

ETA: i have no problem with teaching a horse to stand tied for as long as it needs to be tied. However, I would not tie a horse to <insert object of our choice> and walk away … instead i would figure out a way to gradually teach the horse to stand. heck - hang a bag of hay for it … or, gradually increase the time tied day by day…

lots of ways to do it…

[katarine]

many of the answers here assumed the horse had been taught to tie and yield to pressure. Later responses started talking about tying to the patience pole/highline/whatever, as a means to immediately train a ‘wild’ or untrained horse, to tie.

Two different topics, folks.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by katarine:

many of the answers here assumed the horse had been taught to tie and yield to pressure. Later responses started talking about tying to the patience pole/highline/whatever, as a means to immediately train a ‘wild’ or untrained horse, to tie.

Two different topics, folks.

Ugh. I know quit a few horses that have been taught to tie and yield to pressure that have become confirmed halter breakers, usually because they were put into a situation too soon that startled them enough to sit back, break the equipment and learn that they COULD break the equipment. Then they will repeat it. To some horses it can become a game. They know how to throw their weight around. Not good.

I guess I don’t see it as “two different topics”, but rather as one long road. Understanding the fundamentals of the whole process can help others avoid making the most common mistakes along the way, or correct any mistakes that have been made.

[Movin_Artfully]

Right on, Katarine.

We do about 4-5 exercises to teach the horse to give to pressure before tying. It gives them the skills to know what to do when they are tied and if they were to get into a bind.

As Moon suggested- the same applies to hobble breaking. You don’t just go out and slap a pair of hobbles on any old horse…there is a process to get them ready for it so that it goes well for them.

I would probably differentiate into 4 different types of tying lessons: babies, unhandled (wild), uneducated to tying (trained typically ;)), and then spoiled.

Surprisingly enough, unhandled horses (yes, off the range and never had a halter on) are often easier to teach to tie than under saddle horses…(who often have been “trained” to ignore pressure).

If you have taught them to give to pressure…the only thing left to do is teach them the patience part of being tied and I think that is where most people refer to the tie and let them figure it out strategy.

[katarine]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4611488]
Ugh. I know quit a few horses that have been taught to tie and yield to pressure that have become confirmed halter breakers, usually because they were put into a situation too soon that startled them enough to sit back, break the equipment and learn that they COULD break the equipment. Then they will repeat it. To some horses it can become a game. They know how to throw their weight around. Not good.

I guess I don’t see it as “two different topics”, but rather as one long road. Understanding the fundamentals of the whole process can help others avoid making the most common mistakes along the way, or correct any mistakes that have been made.[/QUOTE]

well it is my intention to clarify what we’re talking about here. MY responses are based on ‘the horse knows HOW to tie, but is a spoiled wiggle butt who flops and wallows after 30 minutes and may endeavor to sit back if they get annoyed enough’. Certain posters took this thread out of context to make it out that some of us were slapping unhandled 3 YOs, or 3 month olds, to a post and going to the house for a sandwich. They muddied the waters, I’m attempting to clear them.

[Softhands]

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. I found them to be more enlightening than the combination of all the other posts in this discussion. Your wisdom is much appreciated.

[AmarachAcres]

Dead thread but a good read. I knew most of this but there are some good tidbits in here I hadn’t thought of.