Elite…as they say “put your money where your mouth is”. Everytime you pay him for a lesson you are essentially condoning what he did. What about the Dignelli’s??? Aren’t they up there too? Go ride with Andre, he’s fabulous too and doesn’t kill horses to make a living.
And if I didn’t care…why would I ask?
Since actions speak more loudly than words, do tell us…why?
[QUOTE=elite;2659443]
I know I’m being troll-like by starting this topic (which would be why I created the alter) because all of the topics I’ve searched about him have turned almost instantantly into trainwrecks.
And if I didn’t care…why would I ask?[/QUOTE]
Ok so you trolled on purpose. Nice. And if you have searched everything then you have already found the answers to your questions.
If you truly cared about what he has done, you would not be giving him $$ and supporting him by training with him.
As long as people like you and your parents support that kind of activity it will always be part of the seedy underbelly of our sport, where it is not about the animals but only about the almighty dollar.Regardless of what PV did, dont kid yourself that other BNT are not committing crimes daily by upping commissions on horses by 50% thereby stealing people’s hard earned money; buying off judges; snorting drugs and teaching your kids; giving kids drugs, etc
We know this industry attracts undesirables but you would be surprised to learn stuff about people you respect.
What PV did was reprehensible, however, there are punishments that fit the crimes and he certainly has realized the impact of his bad judgment/cruelty.
I recall when I was 16 years old at Culpepper horse show where I saw some BNT’s chatting in front of a horse (we stabled on the back side and I was taking out braids. I dont think they knew I was there). They left and shortly thereafter I saw the horse thrashing and ran over to see what was up. I realized the horse had something in his throat and without a thought I stuck my hands up his throat and pulled out (after great difficulty) andapple from his throat. I assumed the people were simply stupid and fed a whole apple and didn’t wait to be sure the horse bite it. That said, the next morning I told the BNT, oh by the way your client fed a whole apple and I was able to get it out and thought they should know. I was thereby drug behind the barn, held up by my throat and told if I ever touch a horse of theirs again I wouldn;t see another day. PS three years later the events of killings were known and in retrospect I came to believe this BNT was attempting the same thing with the knowledge of the owners because I heard the owner say that night “I hate to say goodbye this way”…again I assumed they sold the horse…
There is no question that horse was planned to die that night and in a horrible manner of being chocked to death.
I will not name names but it would make you shutter to know…so the person standing next to you may not be so honest
And as long as the rest of us who are honest are willing to turn a blind eye to the things we see and hear they will continue and cast a dark shadow on all of us who are a part of this sport.
If we are not a part of the solution we are a part of the problem.
I’m glad you saved the horse, but shame on you for not reporting what you saw and heard.
Yeah like being 16 and scared to death of being killed and being a poor kid that had to beg for someone to give me a horse job so I could ride and you think I should have reported it…not a shot in hell. Big of you to think I would know that at 16 years old…If you read what I wrote I didn’t relate death to the event until the killing issues came up THREE years later
So you think I would get anyone to listen to say hey, three years ago I saw blah blah blah…come on, give me a break AND COME DOWN OFF YOUR PEDESTAL…
Umm, let’ see…I guess the EXACT the problem is that he KILLED A HORSE! Other than that, I’m sure he’s a great guy.
Jesus.
I don’t know if this a serious post or just sick-o that wants to stir the COTH pot. It really doesn’t matter either way; whether the OP really questions why this is problem or gets a kinky kick out of posting such shit here, it means that she is a scary, evil person.
Hey OP; do you shake babies to death and kick puppies for fun? Set off fireworks as you drown kittens in paper bag? Tear wings off butterflies and watch them die, just for kicks?
Jesus.
Folks, it’s simple.
OP wants to improve (win)
OP KNOWS Valliere did the killing, in detail
OP DOESNT’ CARE BECAUSE WINNING IS ALL THAT MATTERS
OP came here to look for approval, or at least to try to rationalize within herself winning under the tuteledge (sp?) of a killer. Just another example of the “It’s all about ME” generation. Same generation that GM complains about the lack of horsemanship. Same kinds of folks who think ‘rider’ equals ‘horseman’. Of course you can rationalize killing the horse. The horse is simply a vehicle by which to flatter their own ego.
Am I the only one who sees this???
For the record, PV may not teach up-downers, but certainly comes close. And the parents of these children are most probably not aware of what has happened in the past. They don’t realize that it’s not a matter of choice that the nice man they have just met through their trainer isn’t going to be seen coaching riders at horse shows.
I actually understand why old friends and students have continued to support PV through the years. What’s puzzling is why, with so many choices in trainers, facilities, and clinicians, PV has retained enough allure to make so many new connections.
Every now and then, PV and/or close associates do try to test the waters of acceptance–stirring up controversy on this BB, offering up evidence of reform at the annual meetings, and feigning surprise each time at the negative response.
Let’s review a few ethical principles:
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“Everybody does it” is not a sufficient justification to behave in an unethical manner or to accept negative behavior.
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“You would be surprised at who ‘everybody’ includes” is not sufficient justification.
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“You have to jump on the bandwagon to keep up with ‘everybody else’ who is doing it…” is not sufficient justification.
However inconvenient to PV, et al, it seems that there are apparently enough who embrace the above principles that it is still an uphill battle for those who have reached the point of letting bygones be bygones in this matter.
Mistake: Wearing white shoes after labor day
Mistake: Changing radio station and accidentally bumping into car in front of you
Mistake: Trolling on forums that don’t like trolls
Anti-social behavior: Killing animals for money
Not quite the same as arson since the building wasn’t a living thing
Also, in the horse world…the ONE thing anyone has is their reputation. Who you are associated with makes an enormous impact on that.
If you ever want a good job later on at a reputable barn…being associated with PV will not accomplish that.
Nor will it make you friends with many other reputable horse people.
It might seem “unfair” to forego lessons with a talented person “just” because he did something heinous, cruel and well publicized a while back…but all actions have reactions. This is the consequence of being associated with him. Welcome to the real world where consequences matter. 
I know I watch too much Law and Order, but…
NOT excusing her, but explaining the OP and other teenagers like her–maybe it’s a “at least he cares about me” syndrome sometimes?
I’ve never met the man, but those who have, would you say he’s, like, singularly sympathetic? In a lot of Law and Order episodes, miserable women and girls fall for the murderer or rapist all the time, refusing to believe he could do that sort of thing or thinking he was provoked or out of his mind at the time. They rationalize it, usually because they themselves are desparate for the kind of attention he’s learned to use on them.
It’s the only answer I can think of to the question of why these girls wouldn’t just go to someone else. Something pyschological about them, not his genius or whatever as a “horseman.”
OP: Do your parents know the whole story of the horse killings and PVs involvement?
I worked for PV back in the mid 70’s for the WORST 6 mths. of my horse career life. I was young, naive and desparately needed a job. An adult friend of mine had taken lessons from him, knew his family when his father ran the business and recommended that I work for him.
Suffice it to say that there were some underhanded deals that I witnessed back then that he pulled on clients and their horses which I finally could no longer keep my mouth shut about. I confronted him in the office about an incident and he minimized the whole thing stating, “My back was up against the wall w/this client and I had no choice”. (no horse killing involved then) When the water got too hot because I obviously was not going to turn a blind eye to such sleeziness, I was promptly fired and tossed off the property because I made an unforgiveable “mistake”. I forgot to poltice a client’s horse’s front feet when we got back from Ox Ridge.
Can someone be lower than pond scum? The man is toxic and I’d rather quit riding than to be associated with anything that he does.
Not to excuse the OP in any way, but I think Justjump and Melissaharejones have hit upon the core issue. The twinkie’s parents. Do they know PV’s history? If so, no wonder that Twinkie thinks PV is ok, she has learned by the example of her amoral parents. Winning IS everything, after all.
If the parents do not know the history, well, why not? Do they research anything in the daughter’s life? Look for references? Haven’t they noticed that PV doesn’t go to shows? Wondered why not? All sorts of things are passed on from generation to generation…
OP: The reason we “hate” is that he’s a hateful man. Even before the horse killing came to light, no one was running around saying what a nice guy he was. He may be a talented trainer, and he was certainly among the top 3 eq trainers when I was a junior (mid to late 80s), but the issue is that no true “horseman” would kill his own horse for money. Maybe he should have tried to sell the horse? Normally a more acceptable method of obtaining money. Barney Ward is in the same category for me, and I used to train at his barn (not with him) but let me tell you I had never been “afraid” of anyone in horses until i met him. The things I saw just in daily training…It takes a special person to commit these crimes, and that’s someone who I choose not to patronize with my hard earned money. Totally agree with others though that it’s your parents that should use this situation as a learning exercise, there is more to life than winning and that’s called being a good person.
[QUOTE=elite;2659454]
I don’t approve of what he did at all…but he is an absolutely fabulous trainer. It’s a matter of tipping the scale, which probably will tip in the latter direction because he has helped me improve so much in the few lessons I’ve done with him (just for clarification, I don’t train with him, I just go up there about once a month for a lesson).[/QUOTE]
But you see by paying him to give you lessons and you saying that your riding has improved so much you do approve of what he did.
I can not believe that there are no other trainers between where you are and where he is located. As you stated you go up there once a month I assume this means you travel a bit to get there.
Granted you are a minor and it is actually your parents who are paying him BUT you can inform your parents and YOU can look and locate another quality trainer perhaps locted closer to you. But until “you” stop paying him for lesson you will continue to approve of what he did. It is turning a blind eye.
Elite- One thing to consider is that when you are taking lessons from someone, (and especially jumping), you need to always believe that the trainer will keep your safety and your horse’s well being in mind. IE they will never ask you to do something that is dangerous or will harm your horse.
So, for example, say my horse landed a little funny from a jump and looked a little off, I would rely on my trainer to tell me, “Hey…he looks a little off. Take him back to the barn, and cold hose and if he isn’t better by “x” we’ll get the vet out.” I would expect my trainer to not ask me to continue jumping him and risk serious injury to him.
PV has already proven that he does not care about the welfare of a horse and will do things that are dangerous/deadly to horses.
Not someone that I would want to take lessons from no matter how good they are at teaching riding (note that I intentionally did not say horsemanship.)
Thank you all who responded. I agree with everyone. I think especially since this happened long ago and there are many new people in the horse show world who do not know about the ugly actions of the horse killers posts like the OP’s, whether started as trolling or not, need to be answered as they were, so we can point them to the places where they can read about what happened and hopefully they will make the right decision about whether or not to continue to associate with murderers. And hopefully those murderers will also be reminded that we horse people remember and do not forgive (how can we?). the people who get caught are always sorry after they are caught.
Not a MISTAKE!! It was planned, paid for with a check made out to cash and pre-meditated. A mistake is when one is confused or incorrect in a thought, he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.
He had, the very thing that he makes his living with, killed. For no reason other than greed.
You know I don’t care how good people think he is, it is not our abilities that show what we truly are but our choices. His choice to do that illustrates exactly what he is. He isn’t the only game in town - he isn’t the best, there are many, many more trainers out there with a moral compass that works. Really there are. Who are more talented teachers, trainers and riders. His CHOICE to have that horse killed shows you what he is made of. Doesn’t matter how talented people think he is, he CHOSE the wrong path. It disgusts me that a person could ever think that was the right thing to do or that it wouldn’t matter. People who condone or support him in this business also disgust me. There is no way to make it right, EVER.
If you think, for one second, that this was the ONLY wrong action he ever made, think again. That action was probably only the tip of the iceburg. One doesn’t go that far off track without making many more immoral and illegal choices prior to it. Just like serial killers don’t start out by murdering humans, they start small and work their way up.
So did Amy Tryon and we’re sending her to the Olympics!
But not to get too sidetracked -
I can understand how this was posed as a legitimate question, not to troll. PV has an amazing reputation for his training and coaching skills, and has had incredible success in the show ring. Many people trust their horses with him, he runs a very successful business.
I don’t think anyone disputes that his involvement in the horse killing “scandal” was terrible, horrible, awful. He was found guilty of insurance fraud and sentenced. He served his time.
From what I have heard, he is now apparently trying very hard to make amends, to move forward and make what is left of his life as generous and productive as possible.
There will be people who will never forgive someone for a wrong. There will be others who will choose to recognize that the sentence he served and guilt he will always have to live with are perhaps not enough punishment, but all he will receive - and move on.
If you choose to train with him, then you are one of the ones that “moves on” and enjoys the benefits of his talent and skills. It’s probably best to be aware of his past. Would I worry about the safety and well being of my horse under his care? No. Donkeyman made some excellent points. There are a lot of unscrupulous people in this industry, this sport, this world. PV, at this point, is the least of my worries.
