Pedigree question

I think you cannot rule out that this particular TB mare was bred for sport. The problem for TB’s is that their most obvious sport is racing. But they were used for sport years ago. Then, as time progressed, they were bumped out by warmbloods. So of course it is going to be hard to come up with a TB mare with the same history as a warmblood mare line and no one thought back then, in this country, to record and preserve the records of those old TB lines. But back then, the TB had more all around potential. Otherwise, the Verbands would not have made the use they did of TB’s. IMHO, the TB has become so line bred, in some respects, that a lot of what it had for sport in the past has been lost.

On the other hand, warmbloods have carefully used TB’s all along the way and most of those TB’s had to be somewhat successful on the track, proven in some way.

From what the OP has traced down, it appears that this mare has more going for her than the average TB, and that perhaps the line suffers more from the warmblood rage than lack of ability. Who knows?

She does have wonderful TB lines for sport. In the same way that you’re going to find a lot of Dark Ronald TB blood way back in Holsteiner lines, she’s got some, apparently proven, other TB lines for sport, some of them closer up, some of them in the distance like Dark Ronald is today.

I’d want to make sure that she’s conformationally correct but everything else makes her, IMHO, one of the better TB bets out there.

If her mother line produces, the why may be in those lines from the past. In the same way that Cottage Son and Ladykiller are now in the distant past of most Holsteiners, they are obviously very important and breed shaping.

The one big difference is the lack of mare heritage in this country for TB’s, other than racing. You have to give those old Holsteiner mares- or any other warmblood mother line- their dues. It is very advantageous to have that.

If one does not start somewhere with TB lines for sport in this country, the TB will further become just a breed of crosses of Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer. Which is another topic…

I know what Bayhawk is saying and I don’t disagree with a lot of it. But if you want to use that TB blood in this country, and use it wisely, this mare seems to bring more to the table than most and you have to start somewhere. We don’t and will never have the warmblood mare base that exists in Europe, except for bringing that blood over for warmblood breeding. If you want to perpetuate and begin TB lines for sport, then a mare like this seems to make sense. Depends on what you want to do. As always, in this country, it’s the old argument of having the TB on the dam side.

I too, would like to see this mare bred to a sport TB. And there we run right smack dab into another problem, the live cover rule. Not only is that restricting geographically, with this mare it may not be possible. That’s another reason it’s so hard to perpetuate good sport TB lines in this country.

Conformation Picture

Well, I was not expecting such a lively discussion, but the posters brought up many good points about TB breeding. If I breed her again I would very much like to use a TB stallion.

I am not able to post pictures on the forum, but if you want to see photos of my mare you can go to: picturetrail.com and they are under the username impeggysue.

Thanks for the discussion.

Anticipating has been discussed on this forum several times.
Yet nobody seems to know much about him.

That’s pathetic.

Viney, you disappoint me. I was sure you would know who he is. But now I’d bet you look him up and come back with a ’ I knew that all long post’.

LOL

Don’t know anything about Anticipating. Did just look him up, and he sired Pwynnorman’s TB stallion who sired Teddy O’Connor.

If you know more about his descendants in sport, please share.

Catsdorule (LOVE that!) – said it so well. Thoroughbreds are NOT one-dimensional, i.e. – racing is a specialty that has been honed because of the $$$$$$ involved, but they have always been true athletes in every sense of the word. Maybe that makes them extra special – guess what? – a wb isn’t going to find a career at the track, so if they don’t succeed in one of the Olympic-style sport disciplines, what else is there? Racing has been good in many respects to Thoroughbreds, but it’s also been negative – such as mass production, using some bloodlines to the extreme or detriment of the breed itself and because there are so many “throw-aways” from racing,they have been devalued in the sports market. They belong in the sports disciplines and I believe they will always have a place. It’s tragic to me that more of their sports records for breeding are not well kept and used for that purpose. Kudos to those who still breed for and use them in sport. I fear so many that could have really contributed have been wasted. It’s a bloody shame!
PennyG

Found this on Anticipating searching old posts

Jane, you mentioned consistency in the get. Well, some TB families produce very consistently, but it’s hard to get people interested. My stallion’s sire, Anticipating, had at one point five sons standing in the hunter market, including one in Canada who I think is still alive. Three were 16.3 or taller. The smallest, at 16.1 was a significant winner in the Regular Working division.

It appears Anticipating was used as a sport horse/hunter sire as well?

I can’t add much to this discussion, but I used to show a gelding that went back to Anticipating as his dam’s sire. The gelding I showed had a fantastic canter and great jumping form. I only showed him up to 3’6", but he schooled up to 4’6" at home.

If you search Anticipating, he has been discussed on this forum before. The horse I had was bred in VA at a race horse farm, but never raced. He was purchased and started by a hunter trainer as a 2 yr old and is currently at 17 or so still a 3’-3’3" equitation horse.

impeggysue if you don’t mind me asking, who is your stallion?

To the OP, if your mare is as talented as my gelding was, you have a gem! I love these discussions because I love TBs and find it interesting to see which lines produce nice sport horses.

[QUOTE=TKR;5758560]
Thoroughbreds are NOT one-dimensional, i.e. – racing is a specialty that has been honed because of the $$$$$$ involved, but they have always been true athletes in every sense of the word. Maybe that makes them extra special – guess what? – a wb isn’t going to find a career at the track, so if they don’t succeed in one of the Olympic-style sport disciplines, what else is there? Racing has been good in many respects to Thoroughbreds, but it’s also been negative – such as mass production, using some bloodlines to the extreme or detriment of the breed itself and because there are so many “throw-aways” from racing,they have been devalued in the sports market. They belong in the sports disciplines and I believe they will always have a place. It’s tragic to me that more of their sports records for breeding are not well kept and used for that purpose. Kudos to those who still breed for and use them in sport. I fear so many that could have really contributed have been wasted. It’s a bloody shame!
PennyG[/QUOTE]

I agree (not surprisingly).

As someone who does breed Thoroughbreds for sport and believes deeply in their importance as sport horses, and the value of their bloodlines, I would love to have a mare just like this in my breeding program.
She has a pedigree of proven, valuable Thoroughbred sport horse lines,and she herself is well-proven as a sport horse as both a jumper and a dressage horse.
That she has this competition record demonstrates both her athleticism and her durability, both physical and mental, and that she is willing and capable.
Congratulations to impeggysue for having such a lovely mare, and also for recognizing what a treasure you have.

Just to add, Some Chance is also in the pedigree of A Fine Romance (sire of Risky Fay).

If you can get the funds, it might be worth it to preserve these lines. then you can get a recommendation from Viney for a stallion suggestion!

The dam sire of my CCI** gelding (now 19) is Anticipating. He is also a grandson of Sir Ivor on top. GREAT mover and jumper. PITA to work around and ride. Stunning to look at. I’d take another in a heartbeat.