I have a TB mare I adore and was wondering if anyone could tell me about her pedigree. She is a wonderful jumper and a very nice dressage horse, does her pedigree suggest this? Would this be a pedigree worth breeding?
She is by Amacook (The Party’s Over) by Fabled Monarch
She is out of Anticipates Essein by Anticipation
Fabled Monarch
Well I can’t find the dam side but you have a great start. Amacook http://www.pedigreequery.com/amacook
as a son of Fabled Monarch bringing Le Fabuleux wonderfully close. Amacooks dam side is good basic sport breeding as well. I can’t find Anticipates Essein so maybe check the spelling. There are so many Anticipation that I can’t guess with the information given. But good so far. PatO
Well, you’ve got a very unusually bred horse in Amacook. Top side has Wild Risk in the 3rd, which is extremely rare. Wild Risk is one of the truly great TB lines in sport throughout the Western World. Monarchy was a full sister of Round Table, and those lines are famed for long term soundness.
The bottom is much more unusual, but has something that almost makes my heart stop. You’ve got linebreeding to Wise Counsellor, the last of the Great American Herod/Hanover line sires. The mare, Stepwisely, was the also dam of Bolero, and has multiple horses in Dr. Birdsall to her credit.
Stefan the Great is Dollar line from The Tetrarch/Roi Herode, and was the sire of Silver Beauty, dam of Spotted Beauty. This is a wonderful sport horse line of mares that has made its way into SF Breeding through Dark Tiger. Stefan The Great is also the damsire of Great War, who was a very famous GP jumper and the sire of Miss Budweiser and damsire of New Twist.
Chance Play is a son of Fair Play and is in the pedigrees of A Fine Romance and Kluwall, dam of Touch of Class. In fact, Some Chance is Kluwall’s tail male grandsire.Tintagel has three in Dr. Birdsall, and Bull Lea and Sir Gallahad both have inches of descendants who were champions in the jumping pursuits. Watch Your Step has one. Darter is listed in the pedigree of Chance Step, AHSA Champion Junior Hunter in 1968 and 1969, whose sire was Quiet Step. Citation has 4 in Dr. Birdsall, his dam has another, and Hyperion has 4 inches.
If the other side is anywhere near as good as Amacook’s, you’ve found a treasure in far more ways than one.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5756951]
Well, you’ve got a very unusually bred horse in Amacook. Top side has Wild Risk in the 3rd, which is extremely rare. Wild Risk is one of the truly great TB lines in sport throughout the Western World. Monarchy was a full sister of Round Table, and those lines are famed for long term soundness.
The bottom is much more unusual, but has something that almost makes my heart stop. You’ve got linebreeding to Wise Counsellor, the last of the Great American Herod/Hanover line sires. The mare, Stepwisely, was the also dam of Bolero, and has multiple horses in Dr. Birdsall to her credit.
Stefan the Great is Dollar line from The Tetrarch/Roi Herode, and was the sire of Silver Beauty, dam of Spotted Beauty. This is a wonderful sport horse line of mares that has made it’s way into SF Breeding through Dark Tiger. Stefan The Great is also the damsire of Great War, who was a very famous GP jumper and the sire of Miss Budweiser and damsire of New Twist.
Chance Play is a son of Fair Play and is in the pedigrees of A Fine Romance and Kluwall. Tintagel has three in Dr. Birdsall, and Bull Lea and Sir Gallahad both have inches of descendants who were champions in the jumping pursuits. Watch Your Step has one. Darter is listed in the pedigree of Chance Step, AHSA Champion Junior Hunter in 1968 and 1969, whose sire was Quiet Step.
If the other side is anywhere near as good as Amacook’s, you’ve found a treasure in far more ways than one.[/QUOTE]
Wow! I think that vineyridge is the treasure, here 
It sounds like this mare is worth breeding, just based on the above post!
Anticipating not Anticipation (oops)
Thanks so much for the info! That is great stuff and really interesting.
I actually made a mistake on the dam’s side. She is out of Esseain Anticipates by Anticipating (not anticpation don’t know where I got that) Sorry for the typo. I think Anticipating sired some jumpers?? Anyway thanks again and if anyone knows about her dam’s side that would be interesting too.
Viney is a treasure trove of knowledge when it comes to TB pedigrees but the statement that this mare " is a treasure" is not quantified and is overstated in my opinion. She has blood that COULD be a treasure but is likely so far back and diluted not to have any input.
What has she done ? What has she produced ? What has her mother produced ? Grandmother ? The answer is likely very little , therefore there is nothing to really treasure.
There are so many known cases where the paper is much better than the horse. I have seen many cases where there was no better paper anywhere but the horse holding that piece of paper was insufficient in quality and or production.
A horse in the line that produced a hunter back in 1969 is not a treasure to me. I’m sure she is a very nice mare but just wanted to relay a different line of thinking without getting overly dramatic regarding ancient ancestors.
This pedigree is where I would get excited and call it a treasure.
Calido / Acord II / Corde la bryere / Raimond. The Olympic sire Calido needs no introduction. The mother won the Nations Cup in Helsinki. The grandmother also jumped inter. and is full sister to two approved stallions. The great grandmother produced 10 inter. jumpers and was nominated for mare of the century. This is doing something and deserves “treasure” status.
According to the JC, which does not keep complete records online, there has not been a stallion named Anticipation since 1812. Nor one named Anticipated. No horses named Anticipates.
I’ve also looked in both the EPR and the APR for foals and have found several colts of possible ages, but they seem to have all been gelded.
We’d need better information to run down the dam line.
Just to clarify, the mare was a sucessful Mini-prix and small grand prix jumper. I also evented her with a BNT who said she was the best jumping horse he had in the barn (and that year he had 4 horses in his stable go to Rolex). So I know she is a very nice mare in terms of her ability, I just wanted to know if her pedigree matched her ability of if she was a bit of a fluke. She has breeding issues so she would have to do embryo transfer and I don’t want to waste money. Anyway, thanks again.
Ok here is the mare line her mother did not race so I went one generation back: Sire:Anticipating http://www.pedigreequery.com/anticipating
Dam: Sea Scroll http://www.pedigreequery.com/sea+scroll2
As my momma used to say
One man’s trash is another man’s treasure
[QUOTE=impeggysue;5757027]
Just to clarify, the mare was a sucessful Mini-prix and small grand prix jumper. I also evented her with a BNT who said she was the best jumping horse he had in the barn (and that year he had 4 horses in his stable go to Rolex). So I know she is a very nice mare in terms of her ability, I just wanted to know if her pedigree matched her ability of if she was a bit of a fluke. She has breeding issues so she would have to do embryo transfer and I don’t want to waste money. Anyway, thanks again.
Ok here is the mare line her mother did not race so I went one generation back: Sire:Anticipating http://www.pedigreequery.com/anticipating
Dam: Sea Scroll http://www.pedigreequery.com/sea+scroll2[/QUOTE]
Seems as the mare is capable herself so that is a good start. At least you have some current knowledge to breed with instead of horses that may or may not have done something 50 years ago.
MOST of these TB lines haven’t been bred for sport in many years therefore any knowledge is basically gone. At least you are starting with a mare that can do it herself , so this is a good place to start.
Your mare isn’t a fluke, at least in my opinion. It’s really hard to research modern day tbs with proven sport horse lines, but your mare has TB ones in spades, and they are will be doubled and tripled and quadrupled the farther back you go.
Here is Esseain Anticipats:
http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&reference_number=721264®istry=T&horse_name=Esseain%20Anticipats&dam_name=Sea%20Scroll&foaling_year=1978&nicking_stats_indicator=Y
Or here:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/esseain+anticipats
Anticipating is lovely from top to bottom, and sea scroll has Bull Dog (Our Boots has one who was AHSA Champion AO Hunter in 1965, per Dr. Birdsall) who has a couple of inches of descendants in Dr. Birdsall. And while he is far back in the pedigree on the bottom, she has a line to Sea Sick, son of Elf, who was the damsire of Battleship. Elf was the sire of Bonne Cause, and is probably one of the greatest jumping horse sires of the Twentieth Century. Bright Knight was the sire of the Puissance specialist and Canadian Jumping Team member, The Flying Nun as well as the Open jumper Danny. Sunny Jane is out of one of the truly great Blue Hen mares, Maid of The Mist who produced Craig an Eran and the great mare Hamoaze, dam of Buchan and St. Germans. Buchan has 10 descendants in Dr. Birdsall. Sea Scroll is the weakest link in the pedigree, but she has some very interesting lines in the back. Esseain Anticipats’ last four foals in my 1995 APR–1986, 1987, 1988 and 1990–were all by Amacook.
I agree with Bayhawk that since she has both the genes and proven performance breeding her would be less of a shot in the dark than with many modern day TB mares.
If your mare is Party After Party (1988) she’s getting along in years to try breeding. If she’s the unnamed 1990 filly, she’s still getting up in years. Or is she a younger foal from after 1994? Has she been bred before?
Here is where it is all lost…
The example I gave above showed that the mother did it , the grandmother did it and the great grandmother did it and produced it.
All this impressive data that Viney gives is absolutely useless as we don’t know which parts have influenced this mare because it hasn’t been bred for this over the last many generations. The mother is not even known.
The OP should forget every bit of this and just look at this as having an anonymous TB mare that can jump 4-6 . We don’t know where this talent came from as we don’t know mom or grandma thus making all of the info pure speculation at best.
vineyridge, what a wonderful resource you are!
Yes the mother IS known, the OP posted the dam and sire pedigrees of her horse’s dam.
Thank you
Vineyridge, thank you for the information. I truly appreciate you taking the time to dissect her pedigree. The last two generations of her pedigree may be hard to follow since they were not used for racing. My mare was born at a hunter/jumper breeding farm in NY. Her father was used as a hunter breeding stallion. He had very sucessful 3’6 hunter in the early nineties (I think he even one his division at the Garden one year). I was told my mare’s four full older siblings were all sold as hunters and several of them had very sucessful careers as well.
I do have a lovely six year old out of this mare that is my currently dressage horse.
Again thank you for all your time.
Well, there you go, Bayhawk. Mare came from a TB sport horse breeding program, not a racing breeding program. And she’s produced, and her siblings were apparently successful sport horses.
I think we can all agree the bloodlines are very important and knowing Thoroughbred lines that have worked very well – including internationally – is very important and reliable in predicting what will be produced. On the flip side, just because every Holsteiner has international jumping lines doesn’t mean everyone that shares those lines will have the international capability. The Thoroughbred breeders who wish to preserve the sport capability are fully justified in researching these lines and using the “paper trail” to influence breeding decisions. Apparently this mare has show she is willing and capable. Just because Thoroughbreds are not as popular or being used as much does not diminish the possibilities of a strong sport pedigree. This mare has a solid pedigree of proven lines throughout. I hope she will be bred to a good Thoroughbred stallion with similar lines or proven sports lines and perpetuate the Thoroughbred in sport. I see no reason not to continue breeding Thoroughbreds for sport and if I were in better physical (and financial) shape, I’d be at it full force with my remaining stallion and Huntsman’s frozen and through their daughters. I’m selling everything but my Thoroughbreds – back to my roots and where my heart is – Good luck with this mare!!
PennyG
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5757865]
Well, there you go, Bayhawk. Mare came from a TB sport horse breeding program, not a racing breeding program. And she’s produced, and her siblings were apparently successful sport horses.[/QUOTE]
Excellent ! I wasn’t making slight of your research nor your synopsis. I was just relaying my thoughts on the fact that we don’t know who contributed what to this mare because she is very far removed from sporthorse production from her direct motherline.
Her mother is obviously producing some nice sporthorses but we just don’t know why. Can you imagine what could be produced if we did know why ?
Anyhoo…nice mare and good luck.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5757978]
Excellent ! I wasn’t making slight of your research nor your synopsis. I was just relaying my thoughts on the fact that we don’t know who contributed what to this mare because she is very far removed from sporthorse production from her direct motherline.
Her mother is obviously producing some nice sporthorses but we just don’t know why. Can you imagine what could be produced if we did know why ?
Anyhoo…nice mare and good luck.[/QUOTE]
I knew the sire - very nice horse, good mover and quite a nice jumper with scope. He easily could have switched rings to the jumpers. Nice type and certainly not the stereotypical sprinting racehorse. He stood in a nice level balance - not as uphill as is liked these days but could easily see his daughters to be valuable for sport if they inherited his type.
If people want to bring back the Tb for sport, this is what they should be looking for. Horses bred for sport not the track.
The Party’s Over - brings back good memories. He sure was a good one.
Sue
[QUOTE=SueL;5758046]
I knew the sire - very nice horse, good mover and quite a nice jumper with scope. He easily could have switched rings to the jumpers. Nice type and certainly not the stereotypical sprinting racehorse. He stood in a nice level balance - not as uphill as is liked these days but could easily see his daughters to be valuable for sport if they inherited his type.
If people want to bring back the Tb for sport, this is what they should be looking for. Horses bred for sport not the track.
The Party’s Over - brings back good memories. He sure was a good one.
Sue[/QUOTE]
And here we have coming more and more information and this is vital in the production of good horses. " You KNEW the sire" the op " KNEW some full siblings". This is far more important than any paper.
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