Pedigree, temperament, stallion bias

[WPeg]

I don’t know a lot about genetics or pedigrees, but when I went horse-shopping a little less than a year ago for a low level event horse prospect, I ended up looking at a lot of OTTB pedigrees, and becoming familiar with some names and lines that people liked or didn’t like as far as sport horse ability, soundness and temperament. I still don’t know much about pedigrees but I feel like I learned a lot about how people view them.

People seem more interested in the temperament of the stallion line rather than the mare line. After spending WAY too much time on the internet, I got a little unnerved that the horse I was seriously considering (and ended up buying) had a pedigree that had a lot of stallions with a reputation for being nasty. I ended up just picking the horse I really liked and not worrying that he might be a psychopath because of his breeding (and sure enough he’s very sweet, if a handful at times).

I always thought that in reproduction, it is a toss up, with the issue being dominant or recessive genes, rather than male or female side. Is temperament more likely to be inherited from the stallion? Are there any characteristics that are more likely to come from the male line?

[IronwoodFarm]

No, in fact as a breeder I will tell you that the dam has a huge influence on personality and behavior. The reason there is a focus on stallion lines is because a single stallion will have far more offspring than a single mare. For example, my stallion has about 40 offspring and none of my mares have more than 10 in total and not all by the same stallion. So it is easier to see patterns across stallion lines. I don’t think it is disinterest in the mare line, just that the information is less readily available particularly if you are concerned with performance.

[skipollo]

It really depends. When I worked for a breeding farm, some of the babies were very close to their fathers’ personalities, right down to their irritating quirks and habits. Some of the babies were very close to their mothers’ personalities, in the same way. They’re more likely to develop like mom because they spend their formative months sticking next to mom, but that doesn’t mean dad has no influence.

There was one stallion that could be bred to an absolute doll baby of a mare, but that baby would be a carbon copy of dad aka a mischievous little terror. I’d say it’s a toss up–there’s no 100% correct answer.

[WPeg]

[QUOTE=IronwoodFarm;8316550]
The reason there is a focus on stallion lines is because a single stallion will have far more offspring than a single mare.[/QUOTE]

Ah - I should have thought about that. Makes total sense.

[Timex]

Now, of course, you have to share info on your boy! Lol

is he, by chance, Hail To Reason bred? Halo, and all the stories that go with him? If he is, then you’re in luck! Halo is by HtR, and is a half brother to Roberto, who a lot of eventers have had a lot of luck with. I’ve got more than a few that go back to HtR, through several different sons, and while they are all very different, I’ve found the mares to have similar quirks (and similar to the quirks other others have founds in their similarly bred mares), although the boys have all been easy. Go figure!

[beowulf]

Or perhaps, Storm Cat bred? :lol: bad rap, but beautiful hearts. I’ve loved every SC I’ve ridden. Or more specifically, I’ve really liked all the Terlingua-lined horses I’ve ridden…

[WPeg]

[QUOTE=Timex;8316912]
Now, of course, you have to share info on your boy! Lol

is he, by chance, Hail To Reason bred? Halo, and all the stories that go with him? If he is, then you’re in luck! Halo is by HtR, and is a half brother to Roberto, who a lot of eventers have had a lot of luck with. [/QUOTE]

He’s got Halo in there - the stories are scary!

Sire is Fusaichi Pegasus
http://www.pedigreequery.com/fusaichi+pegasus

Dam is Cinnamon Sugar
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cinnamon+sugar

I had never even heard of Fupeg before this (I don’t follow racing) and I found all these posts and articles saying that “Fupeg” was nasty and horrible, he’s a one hit wonder who never produced anything, no one would dream of breeding to him, etc. Clearly no one likes Fupeg.

Then I came across this article about the worlds meanest stallions:

http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2009/12/meanest-thoroughbred-stallions-ever.html

And I thought Holy Guacamole! Fupeg is the least of his problems, he’s also got Halo, Ribot and Danzig, who apparently ate small children for breakfast. Then there were the articles about Mr P and soundness, etc etc.

So I was thoroughly freaked out, but I did do the 5 hours drive to see him, tried him for a week, and then bought him and I love him. He does have a quirky personality, but there is no meanness in him and he likes people and attention.

But, wow - I had never even heard of Fupeg before (like I said, I don’t follow racing) but he seems to be racing’s least loved stallion.

[EventerAJ]

I’ve never had an issue with FuPeg. I dealt with several of his offspring, from foals to racing age to broodmares, none of them stand out as mean or aggressive. Seeing the stallion in person at Ashford, I don’t recall anything particularly nasty about him. (Now Woodman, on the other hand…)

I haven’t had any bad experience with Danzig (or his sons at stud) either.

Looking at your horse’s pedigree, I would not expect anything out of the ordinary, temperament-wise. It’s a decent page, actually, he’s out of a nice mare.

Halo and Dynaformer have always had a history. I don’t think Dynaformer temperament carries, don’t remember any of his direct offspring that were nasty as he was. Halo earned the reputation, but honestly given where you find him in modern pedigrees, it wouldn’t bother me much.

[LadyB]

I have a Halo baby and he is far from the stories I’ve heard. He’s quite the charmer and LOVES treats and photos. He’s definitely a looker. He’s not mean, I swear he doesn’t know how to kick when out in the paddock.

I’m so happy he never picked up his grand sire’s habits!

His Grand sire is Halo, his sire is Southern Halo and his Dam is El Gato Loco.

[WPeg]

It would be interesting to know if any of the famously “mean” stallions were autopsied to check for brain tumors or other irregularities.

LadyB, your Halo baby sounds like fun. I love a horse with a big personality

[LadyB]

He’s definitely quite the character WPeg, took him a few years after being brought home to really become his own though.

I would be rather interested to know if they did Autopsies, and if they found anything. I bet there was something pain related for sure. And with them being so much further in the past, technology just wasn’t the same as it is today.

[beowulf]

Management is what it all boiled down to, IMHO. I think you’d find those “child eating” stallions were probably much more tractable once they got away from the busy-ness and unnatural management of the racing/breeding life. For all the rumors I’ve heard about how downright nasty Halo and Bold Ruler were, I never met offspring that were unkind.

[WPeg]

@EventerAJ;8317159

Seeing the stallion in person at Ashford, I don’t recall anything particularly nasty about him. (Now Woodman, on the other hand…)

So you got to see Woodman at Ashford? Just curious, did they have any special accommodations for him (muzzle, etc)? Now that I know some names and a little bit of history, I would love to tour some of the farms in Kentucky (if they allow tourists/people who are not breeders).

[Foxtrot_s]

I visited Dynaformer! A son-of-a-gun - did he pass it on?

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=WPeg;8317281]
So you got to see Woodman at Ashford? Just curious, did they have any special accommodations for him (muzzle, etc)? Now that I know some names and a little bit of history, I would love to tour some of the farms in Kentucky (if they allow tourists/people who are not breeders).[/QUOTE]

I didn’t see Woodman out of his stall. I had some friends who worked at Ashford, and got a brief private tour. We were warned not to get close to him, that he was very aggressive and territorial.

During the offseason (summer), most KY farms will do tours if you call in advance. Some of them only go through the tour bus services. In January, some stud farms will have an open house day (& cocktail party) to show off their stallions to potential breeders; even if you aren’t a breeder, I’ve never seen them turn away an interested person.

The most fun I had was acting as tour guide for visiting family of a big-time mare owner. I drove them around from farm to farm for their own private stallion showings-- lots of one-on-one time with the farm managers, grooms, and horses. It was right after Curlin retired to stud, and I remember how physically impressive he was at Lane’s End.

[BatataHead]

[QUOTE=WPeg;8316494]
After spending WAY too much time on the internet, I got a little unnerved that the horse I was seriously considering (and ended up buying) had a pedigree that had a lot of stallions with a reputation for being nasty.[/QUOTE]
I’m surprised that you’d let a pedigree and scary stories you read online sway your decision about a horse you otherwise liked. You realize how many horses have those ‘scary stallion’ names in their pedigree?

[Ibex]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8317259]
Management is what it all boiled down to, IMHO. I think you’d find those “child eating” stallions were probably much more tractable once they got away from the busy-ness and unnatural management of the racing/breeding life. For all the rumors I’ve heard about how downright nasty Halo and Bold Ruler were, I never met offspring that were unkind.[/QUOTE]

This. I knew two mares by the same stallion who was known to be nasty. Both had the same incredibly sweet and kind personality. Different breeders, different histories, very differently bred dams, at different ends of the country. One was an ex-prelim schoolmaster type I leased, and the other was a schoolie in a friend’s riding school. We had no idea they were related until I ran the tattoo number from my friend’s horse.

Funnily enough when we compared photos side by side they were also nearly identical… except one was chestnut and the other dark bay!

[Toadie_s_mom]

We need pictures WPeg! Congratulations, Cinnamon Sugar was a REALLY nice race mare.

[WPeg]

[QUOTE=BatataHead;8321556]
I’m surprised that you’d let a pedigree and scary stories you read online sway your decision about a horse you otherwise liked. You realize how many horses have those ‘scary stallion’ names in their pedigree?[/QUOTE]

Well, I wouldn’t say I let it “sway my decision” - I did buy him, after all!

I will admit I was affected by what I’d read, and it gave me a moment’s pause when considering whether to drive 5 hours and back to try a horse almost fresh off the track. I ended up taking into account the actual horse in front of me and what I could observe of him.

I do now realize how common some of those names are in pedigrees, although I did not at the time.

This has been a really interesting thread - I especially like hearing from people who are breeders or how worked with or on breeding farms, or who have raised babies. Even in the most factual, practical responses I feel I can detect an underlying current of nostalgia and affection for the horses (both naughty and nice) that they’ve bred or raised. I’m sure it is very special thing to breed a horse and watch it grow.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Toadie’s mom;8321724]
We need pictures WPeg! Congratulations, Cinnamon Sugar was a REALLY nice race mare.[/QUOTE]

Agreed…I’d take one of her babies without even a second thought!