Are there any negative consequences to this type of “up close” breeding? I don’t know much about pedigrees, but I saw this in one recently and was wondering if this would present a problem or not. Would you buy a horse like this?
Not necessarily…in fact probably no issue at all. One is assuming if the breeder did this (it’s called “linebreeding” and it’s a very respected and proven way to increase the quality of the foal IF it is done correctly) they did it for a reason.
That close it would be called “inbreeding”, but still wouldn’t necessarily present a problem.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;6141507]
Not necessarily…in fact probably no issue at all. One is assuming if the breeder did this (it’s called “linebreeding” and it’s a very respected and proven way to increase the quality of the foal IF it is done correctly) they did it for a reason.[/QUOTE]
If it works, it’s called “linebreeding.” If it doesn’t work, it’s called “inbreeding.”
But it is done sometimes to try and “set” certain good qualities. Of course, it can also set any bad ones, too. Thus, the above saying.
As long as you like everything about that horse, I wouldn’t worry.
If the horse has known problems, I would worry.
[QUOTE=Meadow36;6141498]
Are there any negative consequences to this type of “up close” breeding? I don’t know much about pedigrees, but I saw this in one recently and was wondering if this would present a problem or not. Would you buy a horse like this?[/QUOTE]
I’ve always heard that Linebreeding is 4th generation and beyond. Inbreeding is 3rd generation and closer. Both can be powerful, Inbreeding is generally considered riskier.
A good overview of Linebreeding
An example of successful Inbreeding
Hope that helps.
A year or two ago when the French won a Nations Cup in europe one weekend I went online and checked their horses. 3 of the 4 were double Alme 2 generations back, and since then I’ve found several other SF similarly constructed.
Other WB breeds seem to be a little less concentrated than that, but use linebreeding extensively to build intelligently on known mare bases.
Do you mean like this pony? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/irish+star5
“Kelly” was at our farm and was a FABULOUS pony. Amazing jump and great mover. She was tough and fearless cross-country, too. I don’t know much about Connemara ponies, but her breeder must have had a reason for doing the cross! http://www.dodonfarm.com/images/kellyjump2.jpg
Thanks for the replies. It’s a TB mare, and the grand-dad in question is Cryptoclearance. I like that he was a stamina horse, one that did better at longer distances.
I haven’t looked at the mare yet; her pics are very nice though.
[QUOTE=Wits End Eventing;6143893]
I’ve always heard that Linebreeding is 4th generation and beyond. Inbreeding is 3rd generation and closer. Both can be powerful, Inbreeding is generally considered riskier.
A good overview of Linebreeding
An example of successful Inbreeding
Hope that helps.[/QUOTE]
Wow, great pedigree site, thank you.
[QUOTE=Wits End Eventing;6143893]
I’ve always heard that Linebreeding is 4th generation and beyond. Inbreeding is 3rd generation and closer. Both can be powerful, Inbreeding is generally considered riskier.
A good overview of Linebreeding
An example of successful Inbreeding
Hope that helps.[/QUOTE]
Another example of Ramiro inbreeding: Rex Z, whose parents were full siblings by Ramiro (the great Rebel I Z and the even greater Ratina Z). Rex Z was an international show jumper in his own right and a successful stallion for Zangersheide. His son, Roble Z who is out of Cobra Z (the dam of one of my mares :D), whose damsire is also Ramiro, competed in the Olympics in Athens for Greece.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=650186
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10336549
Seeing all that red sure is disturbing, but I guess it worked in this case?
When it works… it works really really well.
When it doesn’t work… it doesn’t work really really well.
It’s usually done to set a type or set of characteristics. The bad thing, is any bad features of the horse that you are doubling/tripling/etc on, can come out more. The good thing, you can sometimes get a very prepotent individual.
One of the easiest to see it in (imo) is Al-Marah breeding. She’s gotten linebreeding/inbreeding down to an art form. ( http://www.al-marah.com/) , but it applies to all breeds, and really to all species.
It’s not something that I would recommend for many people. You have to be very un-barn blind. You have to hold your stock to incredibly high standards, and be able to assess where their traits come from (both good and bad) and be really, really willing to cull animals from the breeding herd. But she has been breeding for 70+ years, so she knows the horses, and where they come from, very well, and is known for having very high standards for the ones that she allows to breed and carry on the Al-Marah/AM name… She also used stock from Daniel C Gainey and from the Crabbet stud, heavily, and both programs were/are very long lived and known for excellent stock and having very high standards. (Crabbet Park bred Arabians for 3 or 4 generations… 94 years). She has brought in a few outcrosses recently, one from Australia, another was Opalo (half Spanish Arabian), but both of them, far back, have several of the same components as her stock did. a few of the more interesting pedigrees to me, are http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/am+power+raid , http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rs+sea+raider, http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/am+chance+command, and http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/am+bizantine+bet )
Anyways, here is the article and it has a few key notes about why she does it. http://www.al-marah.com/pdf/0107alMarahWeb.pdf
Excerpt:
A well-spoken and well-educated woman in every
respect, Bazy is a student of equine genetics, who has built
her program around her skills of selective inbreeding. She
believes inbreeding only works if the animals involved are
prepotent for the desired qualities. Mistakes are made, she
says, when inferior horses are bred too closely.
“I have had a plan since the very beginning and it was to
basically linebreed two or three different lines that
complement each other, because when you do that you make
the horses homozygous for their good qualities. It is too
chancy to take a mare with certain faults and breed her to a
stallion that doesn’t have those faults, but other ones. You
can’t pick out what you are going to take from each animal.
But if they are linebred, you have a chance that their good
qualities are going to prevail.”
Simply put; when breeding anything if the mating is being based on a fundamental understanding of genetics the dam and sire have dominate and sub-dominant genes. A positive dominant gene/s would be horse that has shown to always produce foals with “good knees”. Conversely for a negative dominant. Sire or dam. Sub-dominate as I understand it would be more of a “hit or miss” positive or negative gene. The reason for inbreeding is to hopefully “double up” on the positive dominate and bring out more of the desired trait one is looking for. But it is still 50-50 chance until proven other wise.
Crytoclearance is a good example. I remember him as a good race horse of good size and conformation. Not big nor imposing. He is by the very good but short lived sire Fappiano also a top sire of sires. His sire the prolific Mr. Prospector did not of the best of knees and was known to pass that on. Crytoclearance is out of a Hoist the Flag mare. Hoist the Flag had some of the same problems with knees as did Mr. Prospector. So it always struck me as a brave move by the breeders. I would like to believe they had their reasons. In those days I am sure they did. Because Thoroughbreds are bred in sufficient numbers and the industry is relatively small, well documented and “closely held” it doesn’t take long for the “word” to get out on what works and what doesn’t. Unfortunately in the end IMO it is a bit of a crap shoot and we tend to grasp at straws. If it appears to work the band wagon starts rolling and everyone jumps on. Then IMO it becomes a “nick”. Maybe it is the “secret” combination of genes that does give a better then average chance of success. Given the fact that once a perceived “trend” takes hold a lot of people bred on that cross. I tend to think that it HAS to happen given the numbers.
Crytoclearance would be a foot note Thoroughbred breeding if it were not for his grandson Candy Ride (Arg). One of the top 10 sires. You can see a picture of him by going to the Blood Horse website and clicking on the stallion register. His size and scope IMO comes more from his Argentine dam side.
I’d love some feedback on my youngest gelding!
Usually when you think of inbreeding you think of the same sire…
http://www.pedigreequery.com/heart+warrior
Dee
