“Mullen mouth” just describes the mouthpiece (ie. a straight bar) they can come as pelhams or snaffles
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8938373]
One of my acquaintances puts a leather curb strap on her snaffle bit, but no curb strap on her western curb, at least when she has little kids ride her horses. .[/QUOTE]
I’m not able to picture this- the snaffle bit can’t move how it is intended if its tightened down like that?
Why not use a strap on a curb? its important 
I know a LOT of western people and I personally have never ever seen either of these scenarios. Never say never, I guess, of that is what that horse needs?
And as far as pelhams in dressage training, well, dressage training isn’t all about dressage (just like jumper training isn’t all about jumps). By which I mean, basic issues of control, safety, problem solving, etc. take precedence over riding correct competition dressage. You might for instance want to ride bitless for a period of time to solve teeth grinding or head tossing. You might want to go out of the arena and hack for weeks or months if the horse is getting sour in the arena. You might even want to ride the horse in a western curb.
Now, all of these scenarios mean that you are probably going to be backing off riding on contact in the same way you do in a snaffle, and probably putting some of the dressage-specific schooling on the back burner. But sometimes you need to do that.
I get that the pelham isn’t going to function like a double bridle, with two distinct bit actions. But maybe it could function as a problem-solving bit, if you had some basic behavior training issues to work through. Lots of jumpers will use a pelham, even a pelham with connecting straps and one set of reins. They will use s snaffle, say, in the arena, but a pelham cross country for when the horse gets hot. Maybe not ideal, but pragmatic.
Remember also that in some older forms of dressage, the finished horse rides with just a curb bit, as does an advanced Western horse.
So I’d say, if the trainer knows what he’s doing, using a pelham to solve a specific problem isn’t necessarily the end of the world. If the trainer doesn’t know what he’s doing, that’s another story, but the simple fact of using a pelham isn’t necessarily the best proof of that.
[QUOTE=Livie;8938378]
“Mullen mouth” just describes the mouthpiece (ie. a straight bar) they can come as pelhams or snaffles[/QUOTE]
yes, some are fixed to the rings (eggbut, D ring) and some others have for example the normal loose ring attachment where the rings spin around freely.
[QUOTE=Livie;8938378]
“Mullen mouth” just describes the mouthpiece (ie. a straight bar) they can come as pelhams or snaffles[/QUOTE]
yes, I just assumed caper meant the non-leverage version because she suggested it should be used over a Pelham and said it was dressage legal. The dressage legal one does NOT have a chin strap or leverage.
western people sometimes use them, as far as I can tell so they don’t snatch the rings of a loose ring through the horses’ mouth as easily when they are being all handsy. not something “dressage” riders ought to do even very bad ones.
when used by western people they are not tight. I think they are mostly decorative, you can get some very pretty ones full of horsehair and silver and whatnot. you actually attach them in FRONT of the reins with a snaffle.
AHHH maybe that is what the coach did. Had the horse go in the curb bit. That makes more sense. Then when my son demonstrated he could manage the horse and his skill level evaluated over a few private lessons he moved to the double.
See this thread was beneficial afterall.
[QUOTE=caper;8938563]
AHHH maybe that is what the coach did. Had the horse go in the curb bit. That makes more sense. Then when my son demonstrated he could manage the horse and his skill level evaluated over a few private lessons he moved to the double.
See this thread was beneficial afterall. :)[/QUOTE]
that is far more severe than a Pelham. I don’t advocate that as an alternative to a Pelham.
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8938421]
I’m not able to picture this- the snaffle bit can’t move how it is intended if its tightened down like that?
Why not use a strap on a curb? its important
I know a LOT of western people and I personally have never ever seen either of these scenarios. Never say never, I guess, of that is what that horse needs?[/QUOTE]
You’ve probably seen the scenarios of a leather strap on a snaffle a lot then and just haven’t noticed. Its very common. Here is a picture of how a chin strap is used on a snaffle: http://www.chris-cox.com/tack/bits-1
I have no idea why, so don’t ask me
Taking the curb chain off the curb just takes away the leverage affect and I’ve seen it done when the horse doesn’t have a snaffle bridle but the they are letting a beginner ride. You won’t see it in a show or other formal situation!
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8938574]
that is far more severe than a Pelham. I don’t advocate that as an alternative to a Pelham.[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify. For my son’s situation it was not severe and I am not advocating as a replacement to a Pelham. He was already and experienced rider just learning more advanced stuff on a PSG school master. This was to evaluate his experience. This horse in particular works like she is in a double with this set up. He wasn’t a rank beginner and was a confident rider.
[QUOTE=flyracing;8938592]
You’ve probably seen the scenarios of a leather strap on a snaffle a lot then and just haven’t noticed. Its very common. Here is a picture of how a chin strap is used on a snaffle: http://www.chris-cox.com/tack/bits-1
I have no idea why, so don’t ask me
Taking the curb chain off the curb just takes away the leverage affect and I’ve seen it done when the horse doesn’t have a snaffle bridle but the they are letting a beginner ride. You won’t see it in a show or other formal situation![/QUOTE]
Western people believe a chin strap on a snaffle keeps the bit from being pulled through the horse’s mouth. I’ve only ever seen western people use it and only on a western headstall.
[QUOTE=caper;8938563]
AHHH maybe that is what the coach did. Had the horse go in the curb bit. That makes more sense. Then when my son demonstrated he could manage the horse and his skill level evaluated over a few private lessons he moved to the double.
See this thread was beneficial afterall. :)[/QUOTE]
What justification did the coach offer for that?
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8938615]
Western people believe a chin strap on a snaffle keeps the bit from being pulled through the horse’s mouth. I’ve only ever seen western people use it and only on a western headstall.[/QUOTE]
Thanks! I wondered if that was the original reason. Many people keep them so loose, that it doesn’t really work.
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8938615]
Western people believe a chin strap on a snaffle keeps the bit from being pulled through the horse’s mouth. I’ve only ever seen western people use it and only on a western headstall.[/QUOTE]
well, yes, the way people over-flex these western horses I can see how it would be more likely to pull the bit through?
I still don’t think you get the full function of the bit though. its sort of locked down. I guess that is what they want?
I have never seen it though, in person. you learn something new here everyday!
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8938743]
well, yes, the way people over-flex these western horses I can see how it would be more likely to pull the bit through?
I still don’t think you get the full function of the bit though. its sort of locked down. I guess that is what they want?
I have never seen it though, in person. you learn something new here everyday![/QUOTE]
Is there any reason they don’t use rubber bit guards?
[QUOTE=Reynard;8938746]
Is there any reason they don’t use rubber bit guards?[/QUOTE]
Did you mean to ask people who have actually seen this?
I don’t know, it makes more sense to use those or a full cheek. I really can’t understand why people would tie down a snaffle. it totally changes the feel and dynamics.
Honest thought- for anyone, if you are actually worried about pulling the bit through the mouth, maybe there is a deeper problem?
[QUOTE=flyracing;8938592]
You’ve probably seen the scenarios of a leather strap on a snaffle a lot then and just haven’t noticed. Its very common. Here is a picture of how a chin strap is used on a snaffle: http://www.chris-cox.com/tack/bits-1
I have no idea why, so don’t ask me
Taking the curb chain off the curb just takes away the leverage affect and I’ve seen it done when the horse doesn’t have a snaffle bridle but the they are letting a beginner ride. You won’t see it in a show or other formal situation![/QUOTE]
Doesn’t taking the curb chain off just take away the chin pressure? I don’t think it takes away the leverage…just turns it into more of an elevator bit?
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8938753]
Did you mean to ask people who have actually seen this?
I don’t know, it makes more sense to use those or a full cheek. I really can’t understand why people would tie down a snaffle. it totally changes the feel and dynamics.
Honest thought- for anyone, if you are actually worried about pulling the bit through the mouth, maybe there is a deeper problem? :)[/QUOTE]
Yes, I wasn’t asking you specifically, yours was a very good post to quote.
[QUOTE=Reynard;8938786]
Yes, I wasn’t asking you specifically, yours was a very good post to quote.[/QUOTE]
ah! good. thanks
I rode western all through HS. A leather curb strap/bit hobble on a snaffle is partly to save your butt in a wreck, and if the right length, a little bit of a ‘come on, let’s turn’. I’m sure plenty do it for looks or copycat or what have you, but they do have a purpose.
In the long view, if you trot a fresh baby out across a big field, not a little fenced in arena, a little bit of help never hurt anyone.
[QUOTE=jdobbs64;8938905]
I rode western all through HS. A leather curb strap/bit hobble on a snaffle is partly to save your butt in a wreck, and if the right length, a little bit of a ‘come on, let’s turn’. I’m sure plenty do it for looks or copycat or what have you, but they do have a purpose.
In the long view, if you trot a fresh baby out across a big field, not a little fenced in arena, a little bit of help never hurt anyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=098pFXnRbp8[/QUOTE]
so this tightens under the jaw then?
