Pelhams in Dressage Training

[caper]

[QUOTE=Reynard;8938630]
What justification did the coach offer for that?[/QUOTE]

My son had just started riding with her. She had advanced school master type horses. Our horse wasn’t at an advanced level yet.

So to advance his education in riding we went to her to ride the school master type horse to learn advanced dressage. This particular horse was bred by her. The horse was a young riders horse and now semi retired doing the odd lessons. I am guessing this horse may be strong in a snaffle but went good in her curb bit.

Plus she didn’t know my son’s skill level and plus he rides with a disability. He is legally blind. So she worked with us and offered him a great experience over one winter.

[jdobbs64]

well, no. A snaffle is not a leverage device so when you pull back and out to the side the bit ring takes up the slack in the bit hobble… Just pull back? The bit hobble doesn’t do anything.

[Reynard]

[QUOTE=caper;8938950]
My son had just started riding with her. She had advanced school master type horses. Our horse wasn’t at an advanced level yet.

So to advance his education in riding we went to her to ride the school master type horse to learn advanced dressage. This particular horse was bred by her. The horse was a young riders horse and now semi retired doing the odd lessons. I am guessing this horse may be strong in a snaffle but went good in her curb bit.

Plus she didn’t know my son’s skill level and plus he rides with a disability. He is legally blind. So she worked with us and offered him a great experience over one winter.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean the Weymouth?

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=jdobbs64;8938968]
well, no. A snaffle is not a leverage device so when you pull back and out to the side the bit ring takes up the slack in the bit hobble… Just pull back? The bit hobble doesn’t do anything.[/QUOTE]

so exactly what is the point then to take out the slack? What is specifically it doing to the horse?

[netg]

[QUOTE=flyracing;8938592]
You’ve probably seen the scenarios of a leather strap on a snaffle a lot then and just haven’t noticed. Its very common. Here is a picture of how a chin strap is used on a snaffle: http://www.chris-cox.com/tack/bits-1

I have no idea why, so don’t ask me

Taking the curb chain off the curb just takes away the leverage affect and I’ve seen it done when the horse doesn’t have a snaffle bridle but the they are letting a beginner ride. You won’t see it in a show or other formal situation![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8938753]Did you mean to ask people who have actually seen this?

I don’t know, it makes more sense to use those or a full cheek. I really can’t understand why people would tie down a snaffle. it totally changes the feel and dynamics.

Honest thought- for anyone, if you are actually worried about pulling the bit through the mouth, maybe there is a deeper problem? :)[/QUOTE]

There is definitely just a “fashion” aspect about it. However, a snaffle on a western horse is still used with a looser rein. Also, western bits are often left lower in the horse’s mouth so the horse has to use its tongue to hold the bit up - tongues sticking out run in multiple lines, and it can help keep the tongue in the mouth while riding. (I’m not talking tongues out in protest - my last QH had Skipper W lines which were attributed to his tongue being constantly out when standing around with no bridle, except when riding him when he’d put it back in his mouth.) Anyway, if the horse is moving the bit due to that or just correctly softly chewing, and the headstall is looser and reins are loose - the bit rings can flop outward instead of looking steady and pleasant. A leather curb strap can quietly hold the rings in the correct position - not holding them clamped, just loosely keeping them from flipping out - it’s really irritating when you’re riding a more trained horse and the bit flips over due to tongue use on the part of a horse, but on a young, green horse it could be dangerous. I’ve seen multiple horses do it while standing around.

Mostly, though, it’s the “fashion” and done without much thought…

[Reynard]

[QUOTE=netg;8938998]
There is definitely just a “fashion” aspect about it. However, a snaffle on a western horse is still used with a looser rein. Also, western bits are often left lower in the horse’s mouth so the horse has to use its tongue to hold the bit up - tongues sticking out run in multiple lines, and it can help keep the tongue in the mouth while riding. (I’m not talking tongues out in protest - my last QH had Skipper W lines which were attributed to his tongue being constantly out when standing around with no bridle, except when riding him when he’d put it back in his mouth.) Anyway, if the horse is moving the bit due to that or just correctly softly chewing, and the headstall is looser and reins are loose - the bit rings can flop outward instead of looking steady and pleasant. A leather curb strap can quietly hold the rings in the correct position - not holding them clamped, just loosely keeping them from flipping out - it’s really irritating when you’re riding a more trained horse and the bit flips over due to tongue use on the part of a horse, but on a young, green horse it could be dangerous. I’ve seen multiple horses do it while standing around.

Mostly, though, it’s the “fashion” and done without much thought…[/QUOTE]

Do the horses put their tongues over the bit if it is that low in the mouth?

[netg]

[QUOTE=Reynard;8939002]
Do the horses put their tongues over the bit if it is that low in the mouth?[/QUOTE]

You’d move it up if you have one who does, but I don’t remember a horse ever getting its tongue over the bit when I was showing western. (This was also in the early 90’s and earlier, and horses didn’t do the sideways crab 4-beat at the time, necks were parallel to the ground not practically dragging on it… things may be different now!)

[Reynard]

[QUOTE=netg;8939066]
You’d move it up if you have one who does, but I don’t remember a horse ever getting its tongue over the bit when I was showing western. (This was also in the early 90’s and earlier, and horses didn’t do the sideways crab 4-beat at the time, necks were parallel to the ground not practically dragging on it… things may be different now!)[/QUOTE]

I’m going to nod intelligently, and pretend that I understand.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=Reynard;8938746]
Is there any reason they don’t use rubber bit guards?[/QUOTE]

Rubber bit guards are illegal in western pleasure. some contesters use them.

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Reynard;8939071]
I’m going to nod intelligently, and pretend that I understand.[/QUOTE]

its the weird lope they do now, they think turning the haunches to an extreme angle somehow helps? also making it very disjointed. they look like crabs hopping across the sand.

[Reynard]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8939081]
Rubber bit guards are illegal in western pleasure. some contesters use them.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

[Reynard]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8939082]
its the weird lope they do now, they think turning the haunches to an extreme angle somehow helps? also making it very disjointed. they look like crabs hopping across the sand.[/QUOTE]

I have never seen Western riding, but thank you.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8938781]
Doesn’t taking the curb chain off just take away the chin pressure? I don’t think it takes away the leverage…just turns it into more of an elevator bit?[/QUOTE]

I would think that taking the chain off would take away the leverage, because there is now no fulcrum for the bit to turn around. If that makes sense. The bit just lifts and pulls straight back. I agree, it is pointless. Why not just have a snaffle?

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Reynard;8939099]
I have never seen Western riding, but thank you. :)[/QUOTE]

not even on youtube?

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

[QUOTE=Reynard;8939099]
I have never seen Western riding, but thank you. :)[/QUOTE]

It’s probably best that you keep it that way. The way modern Western Pleasure horses go is looks unnatural and is really hard to watch. I’m not a western person and I don’t know what goes into the training and riding so I don’t meant to knock it, but it’s just weird.

This is really interesting about how a curb strap or chain can be a whole other method of communicating with your horse. I didn’t realize it was even a possibility. Off the top of my head, I know that some of race horses are trained and ridden with curb straps on their bits. And I imagine that lot’s of barrel racers or people who run games (it that lingo they use? can you tell that I am trying to be cool?) use snaffles with curb straps. I bet it serves both purposes mentioned here: it keeps the bit from being pulled through the horse’s mouth (plenty of racehorses don’t run in nosebands) and it puts a little leverage on the chin to give the rider more persuasion over what is probably a strong, forward thinking horse.

This thread has been very interesting and informative, thanks guys!

[jdobbs64]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8938991]
so exactly what is the point then to take out the slack? What is specifically it doing to the horse?[/QUOTE]

did you watch the video, or do you just wish to discuss this with me? The video provides a clear illustration.

[jdobbs64]

do not look to Western Pleasure to define western riding. Do you think it would be fair to look at Saddleseat and call it ‘english riding’ definitively? As in representative of all? That would be grossly overstating what it is, no?

Richard Winters on a 3 YO in a snaffle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyHWiXFKXHU

[jdobbs64]

another nice example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7SJ6aQx9KU

[jdobbs64]

and last one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDjOFmWA3hk

[fenwai]

[QUOTE=jdobbs64;8939437]
and last one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDjOFmWA3hk[/QUOTE]

I would not kick that horse out of bed for eating crackers! Very, very lovely!