People Attempting to Undermine Safe Sport

[Scribbler]

I think there are different layers to this. I think @Amberley got onto this particular strand in response to a commenter quite a while back in this thread who was grabbed/ assaulted/ groped by a groom, and couldn’t get that taken seriously by the barn owner.

I would say typically grooming and related ongoing coercion of minors is by and large going to be from people with power in the riders lives (coaches, trainers).

I feel like violent assaults by the barn workers is going to be a constant but unknown possibility if you are hiring very marginal men to work in a barn full of young middle class women who may not think they need to keep their guard up at all times in their expensive “happy place.”

Equestrian facilities have a blend of organized youth sport with extremely low dollar agricultural work that’s different from any other sport.

That said, there’s been one or two creepy or violent barn worker stories here on COTH, but not nearly as many as there are high profile trainers grooming teens into exploitative “consensual” sex (meaning teen can’t legally consent, but is manipulated into thinking trainer is their boyfriend or loves them or whatever). And then the trainers that try to groom but misjudge a situation and the teen runs screaming.

Anyhow I agree the situation with random barn workers is potentially troubling, but it’s also true that most “marginalized” men are not sexual predators (even if they have committed other crimes) and that they can choose not to get into trouble at work. They have no power in the barn hierarchy.

As I said upthread, I’ve never been at a barn that had a clear division between barn help and clientele like that. Around here it’s mostly women doing barn work, often in exchange for lessons (exploitative in its own way) or the trainer or barn owner.

I would likely find it uncomfortable on many levels to be at a barn with a distinct “barn worker” class of marginalised men.i realize it’s the norm in many parts of the US and it makes sense to hire men who can work faster and harder than teenage girls.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Amberley

That so many barns do hire sex offenders, addicts, homeless adults and people they frankly have no way to background check and then ignore clients concerns is a symptom of the problem. You’ll find the same issue in any job that routinely hires under the table and that pays illegally low wages.

Clients have a degree of veto power. Take your money and your horse elsewhere if you are unhappy with what is going on between management and barn staff.

I have pulled horses from programs when I was unhappy with issues directly related to how management was treating staff. I’m absolutely willing to pay a going rate to board at a nice place in a high quality training program. But if the management can’t keep adequate staff onsite? Or obviously significantly overworks the staff they have? I take note. Because that’s a sign of a management problem. And given how expensive horses are these days… I have no interest in paying to be at a place with a dysfunctional and exploitative environment.

[victoriakent]

Yes I removed my horse from a barn where the owners daughter was dating a registered child sex offender and I was not going to bring my stepdaughter around him. I had other issues there but that was the final straw for me.

On the other hand I do not have a problem with a barn responsibly hiring a former convict depending on the crimes, on a very case by case situation. I have seen many people reform their lives and do believe in second chances.

[Ghazzu]

I’m not arguing that working conditions are generally less than optimal on the lower rungs of the equine world.

What I do question is the idea that means those exploited people are more likely to be sexual predators than the trainers/coaches/pro riders.

[Ghazzu]

@Amberley

You can say that and presumably feel good about it but you don’t know that.

Oh, FFS, you don’t know otherwise.
You’re welcome to your (IMHO misguided) opinion, but don’t push it as fact unless you can back it up with data.

Do you know a single woman your age who has not been harassed or assaulted by a barn employee at some point in her life?

I don’t know a single woman who has not been harassed or assaulted, period. But it holds true for the male of the species across ethnic, economic status and country of origin.
I don’t think barn help is likely to even be in the top ten categories worldwide.
Number one is probably clergy, if you really want to speculate.

[DownYonder]

@Amberley

Do you know a single woman your age who has not been harassed or assaulted by a barn employee at some point in her life? I

Oh Dear Lord. I have been a boarder and/or worker at dozens of barns over the past 40+ years, and I have never been harassed or assaulted by a barn employee - or by a trainer or a barn manager or a barn owner, for that matter. But then, I have always been careful to not board or work at places that employed or were managed by sketchy folks. And pretty much all the “marginalized immigrant” barn workers I have been around at those barns were kind, decent, honest, and honorable men that I had no qualms about being around, even when we were the only ones in the barn late at night to tend to a sick horse or finish barn chores, etc.

I am sorry your experiences have been so different and that the owners of the places you boarded or worked at were not more careful in screening their employees.

[Ghazzu]

@Amberley

Other people on this thread are equating marginalized to immigrant to sex offender to Spanish speaker to unskilled groom. That is all of your assumption and thought process, not mine:

it is indeed your thought process.
I am not classifying barn help at all.
I spent my early years in the horse business working for a TB racehorse trainer and breeder, and am quite familiar with the denizens of the backstretch as well as those on the farm.
I’ve been one of those people.

[Railbird]

Interestingly there’s a recent scandal in AKC dog showing and there’s an overwhelming support to require participation in safesport for judges even though it’s not an Olympic sport. People just are volunteering to be part of the system as an immediate response to finding out a judge is being tried for child pornography. Kind of fascinating to see the difference in reception.

[SonnysMom]

I have never been harassed or assaulted by a barn employee. I am 56 so have been in plenty of barns. When I was 18 I worked at a barn. The BO who was in his late 50s broke my virginity. He was sleeping with another barn worker and I know she started when she was 16 years old.
I have never been told by anyone I know that they were assaulted or harassed by a barn employee.

[Ghazzu]

@Amberley

And as far as being “one of those people”, that is ridiculous: you are an upper middle class american living in america who had resources to go to vet school, has a well above average income and you get to go home every night. You do not understand what it is to be a poor middle aged adult starting over, or to travel to a country where you do not speak the language without money for a job you are pretty sure is going to rip you off or to be stuck in a shitty live-on-site job surrounded by people with a well documented history of violence and criminality. Temporarily slumming it as a young person is not the same.

You really ought to stop making unwarranted assumptions, my dear.
I was born into a working class blue collar family. I cooked dinner 3 night a week becaus my father had to come home to eat and leave again before my mother got home to start dinner. I worked my ass off to get into and then pay for vet school, and being absolutely horrible at being a businesswoman, have never made that much money as a DVM. In fact, I don’t believe I’ve ever in my life had an annual income in the 6 figures.

After I dropped out of college in the early '70’s, I ended up milking cows on a dairy farm, and between the racehorses and the dairy farm workers, I’m pretty damned intimately acquainted with hard physical labor for piddly money and questionable housing and the people in that situation–again–I was one.

So don’t effing accuse me of being privileged in that regard.

[punchy]

@Amberley

It is not, others have equated those things and implied that’s what I’ve said but they are just deflecting the real issue away.

Your posts make no sense. First you fault the horse industry for hiring “marginalized” men, but you won’t define “marginalized.” Then the horse industry is at fault for hiring vulnerable young women, whom you also call “marginalized,” because it puts them at risk of being abused by the undefined marginalized men. When people try to make sense of your logic by trying to define what you mean by “marginalized,” you attack them for making assumptions about what you meant and then go off on a rant about something different.

[mroades]

I have never been assaulted by a barn worker, or even harrassed. But I was assaulted by a judge when I was 16 and harrassed by a photographer in my early twenties. I am 57 now

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I understand where you are coming from…

HOWEVER…

This thread is primarily a SafeSport discussion. And a discussion about the attempts to undermine SafeSport.

SafeSport was initiated because of problems with the abuse of minor athletes across almost all sports involved in the Olympic movement. I’ve followed this topic for years, and it’s truly stunning how many of the dynamics specific to the sexual abuse of minor athletes are consistent across totally different sports.

SafeSport code is intended to address situations where power differentials lead to exploitation and abuse of individuals who have less power… not only children, but also at times working students and staff

Anyway… just thought I would pipe up to try and refocus the discussion back onto the central topic.

I do agree that there is an entrenched culture in equestrian sport in terms of certain people at the top acting with impunity and utter contempt for societal norms when it comes to behaving professionally and decently when it comes to coaching other people’s children. It’s really sad.

Back to the recent revelations about a lawsuit connected to a key polo figure… it’s still completely crickets on social media. His wife is a well known FEI vet. His daughter is/was a part of the h/j community. The allegations involved in the lawsuit are shocking, and linked to a very significant Virginia equine sport venue. I find the crickets interesting… and sad. People still seem to be quietly brushing awful behavior under the rug.

At this point, I don’t know that much of anything ever really will change. And that’s very sad.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Amberley

Also nothing about what Gobin did is a surprise to anyone involved in polo in that area of VA. It says in the article even that it was an “open secret”, which is just code for “not affecting me so I dgaf, those girls should know better”. Which really is an indictment of the sport. Or the human race.

The article said it was an “open secret” amongst people who worked on his farm.

But he was also employed by Great Meadow for years. I don’t know… I guess I just am not yet ready to believe that they (GM) knew the full extent of his alleged behavior and criminal activity.

[BrownDerby]

@Amberley

Many, many horse businesses preferentially hire people who are marginalized (look it up if you don’t know what it is, it’s a defined term). The reason they hire people like that is because they’re vulnerable to coercion and to poor labor practices and they are unlikely to be willing or able to talk to clients, challenge the status quo or call someone up and initiate an investigation into animal abuse or sexual assault.

I’ve seen this hiring practice far, far more in academia than in horse barns.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

That’s an interesting comparison and link. It’s not just a matter of a power differential due to economic leverage. It seems like when a small percentage of bad and unethical human beings take on the roll of teacher or professor or coach… they give in to the urge to really misuse and abuse the power and authority that comes with that position.

[smoofox]

@Ghazzu

@Amberley

Other people on this thread are equating marginalized to immigrant to sex offender to Spanish speaker to unskilled groom. That is all of your assumption and thought process, not mine:

it is indeed your thought process.
I am not classifying barn help at all.
I spent my early years in the horse business working for a TB racehorse trainer and breeder, and am quite familiar with the denizens of the backstretch as well as those on the farm.
I’ve been one of those people.

Hell - I am one of those people - and have been so for 35 years. I doubt that I count as “marginalized” in the opinion of some here…

And just to be clear - I am not an upper middle class white woman who has an above average income. I do get to go home every night - because I live in the barn apartment.

@SonnysMom

I have never been told by anyone I know that they were assaulted or harassed by a barn employee.

Same here. And I have never been assaulted or harassed by another barn employee… in a variety of disciplines and breeds… and on the backside. I was assaulted by a photographer back when I was a graphic artist, though.

[Knights_Mom]

@Amberley

@Ghazzu

What I do question is the idea that means those exploited people are more likely to be sexual predators than the trainers/coaches/pro riders.

You can say that and presumably feel good about it but you don’t know that. Because there is no accountability for the facility when someone they hired and failed to adequately vet or supervise harasses or assaults or steals from another employee or an athlete the way there would be in other sports. And yes that includes coaches/ pros/ instructors, they should also be vetted and supervised.

Do you know a single woman your age who has not been harassed or assaulted by a barn employee at some point in her life? I don’t. How many times were there serious consequences for the employer or official coach/ trainer who knowingly hired that person and supervised them every day? Never I’m guessing.

By implying I’m classist/ racist/ sexist all you are doing is telling girls not to speak up or they’ll be judged and silenced and that their comfort and safety is not as important as your values. I think we are all tired of hearing that. I spent 5 years working on the oilfields and living on and off in the mancamps in my 20s and I felt safer there than at a lot of barns. It’s absolutely a top-down cultural issue.

I have never been harassed by a barn worker nor do I know of anyone who has.

[Paint_Party]

Same here. I was able to afford the bigger shows because I was braiding until dawn, mucking stalls and lunging alongside other less than moneyed young female equestrians. Never had a barn employee do anything remotely out of line.

But well-heeled, married clients? Big name trainers? College professors? The assistant principal at the high school where I first taught? A radiologist who was treating me, at
the hospital no less? Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.

[phantomhorse]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

But he was also employed by Great Meadow for years. I don’t know… I guess I just am not yet ready to believe that they (GM) knew the full extent of his alleged behavior and criminal activity.

Penn State knew about Sandusky…