Obviously all complaints should be investigated. And no one wants to unleash a ped back into the sport. But the investigative process is extremely time-consuming and alleged perpetrators cannot necessarily find affordable and knowledgeable representation in a timely manner. Many victims claims are similarly time-consuming and sometimes not addressed in their entirety. There are the cases we see reported, but there are also many cases which lack the manpower and/or funds to reach a conclusion.
These are essentially Bonnie’s arguments.
but you cant really have it both ways in any of these cases.
investigations can’t generally be fast and thorough, because often one thread leads to another to another to another a la the rob gage case, where victims were still coming forward AFTER the ruling was handed down, hence his suicide.
And unfortunately many victims will never know justice under any system, because most don’t report. Then most reports don’t lead to sanctions, usually because of a lack of corroborating evidence. There’s not really a way to change that, other than to change a culture that tolerates predators as long of they’re good for something, and tortures and shames victims, terrorizing them into never coming forward.
Again, it would be great if athletes for equity sought to change a culture that turns a blind eye to abuses, and that attacks survivors. They could be real leaders in that fight by simply policing their own.
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I agree that we should not let our kids or young adults go off to circuit without supervision. And I also started at a very early age explaining to my kids what’s what and to keep an open dialogue with me. My 4 kids also look out for one another. Some weird things have happened along the way - often involving alcohol - and I was glad they had each other’s backs. And that they ratted each other out to me! No topic has ever been off-limits. Education begins at home. When I went away to boarding school at age 15, with my horse, all kinds of bad things happened between students and faculty members. I’m still trying to figure out how John Manning got off the SS list !
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Any investigation should be time consuming, unless we’re willing to accept half-assed work. SS probably needs to expand its people so that more investigators are available. I’d be happy to donate to that cause. As far as the alleged perpetrators having trouble finding legal counsel, that’s not something SS should be responsible for. They would have the same issue with a civil suit.
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He is still on the central data base list just not on the USEF version. Decision date 11/12/18 - criminal disposition involving a minor - limited participation. No idea how limited the participation is, but he’s on there.
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@Atlas Shrugged I’ll attempt an accurate Cliffs Note version of John Manning. He was originally placed on the SS lists (USEF and SS) based on prior behavior at a time when it wasn’t an automatic banning for a registered sex offender. He appealed, possibly with the assistance of a well-known show manager who hires him, and partially won the appeal in that he was reinstated with limited privileges. The limited privileges are apparently limited to course design (source - conversation with an individual at SS and with the USEF counsel). It was subsequent to all this that being on the registered sex offender list meant that you were automatically on the SS list. USEF cannot now go back and deny him all privileges (i.e. suspend or ban him) because that would be a form of double jeopardy (source - USEF counsel). USEF cannot list him on their SS list because their rules don’t have a provision for limited privileges (source - USEF counsel).
I don’t think that SS understands that a course designer is typically on the show grounds for all or most of the day and is free to wander more or less at will.
There was an article in the OC Register about John Manning and Steve Milne, but it’s now behind a paywall. https://www.ocregister.com/2020/02/19/two-suspended-by-u-s-center-for-safesport-remain-involved-in-equestrian/
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It’s wonderful that you are an awesome parent and that your kids have turned out to be as great as they are because of you; this forum is almost as full of perfect parents as it is full of people who own horses that are 10+ movers and jumpers. It’s clearly easy for you to say that education starts at home and use yourself as an example, but what about all those kids who have parents who aren’t perfect? Should they just stay away from equestrian sports? Who will tell them that it’s not safe for them to participate in the sport, since their parents might not be perfect? Or should we just shrug our shoulders and say, “oh well,some of these kids might get molested but since their parents don’t seem to have kept an open dialogue with them, it’s not the trainers’ fault - the parents should have explained stuff to their kids and kept an open dialogue, and their siblings should have had their backs. Those kids don’t count because their parents and siblings should have been better”.
I suspect a lot of these minors who were assaulted by their trainers were from good homes whose parents thought they also had explained what’s what to their kids and felt that they had kept an open dialogue with them, and it happened anyway. Maybe instead of feeling superior, you could consider feeling lucky.
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Isn’t this also a completely valid criticism of the criminal justice system?
So what are your ideas to make it better?
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You probably don’t mean this this way, but this is classic victim blaming. You’re saying our sport isn’t safe for young adults to go off showing on their own?
How about we we have a standard instead that admired horsemen, professional or amateur, don’t abuse horses and don’t abuse students? I don’t think this is a unreasonably high standard and it troubles me that you do.
Kids from ‘good families’ with attentive parents are also victims of sexual assault and abuse. The implication otherwise is a reason families and victims feel shame about being attacked.
You shouldn’t have to have genetic siblings to be safe from predators.
Let’s do better. Let’s be a sport of transparency and high ethic where no one is above the rules or the law.
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The thing that still gets me is that none of the people who make anti-SS posts here ever manage to come up with legitimate, realistic suggestions for improvement. They complain, they make claims about the many ways in which SS is deficient, yet when you ask them to identify specific, concrete changes that would improve SS, all they ever come up with are things that demonstrate that they have absolutely no understanding of how SS operates or the law (Protecting Young Victims from Sexual Abuse and Safe Sport Authorization of 2017) under which SS was created.
I have no doubt that SS could be improved. Nothing is ever perfect. But genuine, good-faith suggestions for doing so are impossible to find amidst the sea of victim blaming and the making of excuses for the bad behavior of big names in the industry.
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Seriously? That’s your take-away from my suggestion that we educate our children about what abuse looks like? You think that a congressional designation in the form of SS as it affects Olympic sports is going to prevent sexual perversions of those in power? Rather than making ridiculous criticisms of earnest suggestions, perhaps you can offer something worthwhile, as you claim is sorely lacking? Let’s here some good ideas- besides keeping kids in the dark and hoping SS will save them
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Um, I guess you are the judge and jury. And ya, I know a lot of incidents where kids were sent off to FL for the winter armed with a credit card and a horse or two who became addicted to drugs (often via grooms) or pregnant, etc. And yes, I am lucky that my kids are happy and healthy. And I am glad that they know they can come to their parents when they think someting is NQR. There have been plenty of ups and downs, but they know they have parents who will listen.
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From one attorney to another: this is BS. There were/are lawyers, throughout history and to the present, who lent their collective hand to make things “better” like: keeping schools segregated, continuing apartheid, opposing environmental regulations to keep air and water clean or corporations accountable. I’m not talking about defending parties accused of wrong doing. I’m talking about working hard to prevent the implementation of rules and regulations to make situations better because those regulations weren’t good for certain people.
So, no, not just “any lawyer who makes the effort to lend a hand” should be commended. Many, many should be condemned. Again, to be clear, I’m not saying condemn a lawyer for defending someone accused of a heinous crime. Everyone deserves robust representation. I am saying lawyers who are working to REDUCE oversight and regulation aimed at protecting minors in their sporting lives should most assuredly not be commended.
And those doing so by going after victims (e.g., BN’s “oops!” post of AK’s picture) should be condemned as the personification of the very worst, the most base and morally bankrupt, of our profession. They bring shame on what we do and should be called out and held to accountability. BN is the type of lawyer who inspires all the many awful lawyer jokes* and we as lawyers should stand up and reject such sickening and unprofessional behaviour or be willing to be associated with it.
Saying anyone involved should be commended is simplistic, incorrect, and I suspect purposefully obtuse. It also reflects badly on the profession of which you are a part.
*One that comes to mind here: What’s the difference between a flounder and a lawyer? One’s a scum-sucking bottom feeder and the other is a fish.
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Many kids did/do go to their parents or other adults and those people looked the other way. When I was a teenager, every adult at the barn knew the trainer was involved with junior riders. The adults did nothing to to protect the kids. Why are the kids the one that need to do something if an adult is incapable of doing what is right? Nasser is a perfect example. One father committed suicide after Nasser was found guilty. He made is daughter apologize. He did not want want to believe her. Others were unwilling to believe the girls. People don’t want to get involved.
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Guys- Atlas also said on another thread that a child who can ride around a course better than most adults should be able to sniff out if someone is using and abusing them… So really- not one rational thing you post will change anything.
Atlas is also another prime example of someone who points out the flaws in SS, but really does not understands it- perhaps they are no longer a showing member. No clue, don’t care. On the other thread A.S. did not realize they do indeed have trainings for minors. Those training are broken up by age group. But a parent needs to create the account (because- ya know- they are minors).
So really- you will never change the ISWG crowd. We are wasting our breath and letting a flea wag the dog.
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It’s great that some parents are involved and paying attention to what goes on in the barn and educating their kids. My experience was being dropped off right after school and picked up right before bedtime, thankfully my trainers were awesome and I loved my time there, but I could have easily been prey otherwise. It’s not that my mom didn’t care, she just had my sister who had no tolerance for being near a barn, and my father worked late.
What do we do about kids that can’t or don’t have a present parent? Even worse, what do we do about the kids who DO have an involved parent, but that parent doesn’t see or believe what’s happening? Kyle Stephens had the courage to tell her parents, and still nothing was done. This is her statement to Larry Nasser, which I recommend watching. THIS is why we NEED SS. Because not every adult in our sport can see and stop the abuse.
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The bravest of the brave.
@Atlas Shrugged is probably not brave enough to watch this and yet is the exact person who needs to most.
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Thanks for the tip! What are you, like 12?
My experience was also being dropped off, then driving. I drop my kid off to help at a PC barn on Saturdays. Parents are not absolved and even the most vigilant parents’ Child can be abused. That is the world we live in unfortunately. Parents need to mitigate the risks, be alert and attentive. And we, as the collective horse industry have to stop making excuses for abuse.
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I show all all over, and do not want to undermine SS, and seems like you are just looking for scapegoats - [edit]
