People with hip pain....Bates Artiste? (edited title to be more inclusive - sorry!)

[Alterration]

I’m on the saddle hunt again. So frustrating. I’m having a lot of trouble with my hips, and my horse has muscled and I just can’t get comfortable. I have gone through a Passier GG and a wonderfully cushy but breaks my butt Loxely by Bliss. Both force my leg to be too straight too quickly. It takes my body awhile to stop tensing up, a product of pain and anticipated pain that I haven’t yet been able to get rid of.

Yes, I do the dressage exercises of pulling your legs up and bringing them down, but I have to actually be able to get over the knee roll in order to be able to do that, and some of the wider saddles I just can’t.

I do have a consult with the surgeon again (I’ve already had Labral tear repair and osteoplasty) as my FAI has returned. I’m being stretched by a sports medicine personal trainer, and am trying to follow a workout plan that strengthens everything in that region. I suspect it’s my TFL actually causing issues, but that’s new information that I just figured out yesterday.

Anyway, I’m comfortable riding in my hunt seat saddle, but fighting it tipping me forward a bit. The Artiste was recommended to me to try because of all the possible adjustments, but of course no one has one sitting around to sit in, so I’ve got one on order. What I can’t find is how much the knee roll actually adjusts (I can see that it’s adjustable, and that it tilts…but how much?). I suppose I can just wait until it gets here, but I’m impatient. I was tempted to order something completely flat or with velcro blocks so that I can just take them out, but some of those have really straight flaps or swept back even and there’s no way I wouldn’t just be hanging over the flap.

So anyway - that’s my question, how much do those darn knee rolls adjust? Does anyone with hip pain have one of these and love it?

[Knubbsy]

I have EDS as well as “impressive” hip-femur angles (according to an orthopedist) so am prone to hip problems (popping hip, subluxation, tight flexors, and currently piriformis syndrome) and have a Bates Artiste. It has a slightly wider twist than the Bates Mono but I like the feel more and does well for my mare. My trainer and I have a theory it was designed for people with shorter proportions since we both like it but our barn manager hates it with a passion (she is taller) - but it’s also dependent on your femur length, I have a longer femur than my trainer despite us being the same height.

The knee blocks do have a fair bit of rotation, plus you can move the stirrup bar into 3 different positions (which significantly helps me find the sweet spot). We’ve talked to Bates about the knee block because, ideally, I need one that is shorter. They’ve apparently run into problems with petite people with long femurs before. As of last winter, there are no plans to make interchangeable knee blocks, but they know there is interest. I make it work, but if my hips are tight that day, I may be popping over the knee block during mediums.

[Alterration]

@Knubbsy

. My trainer and I have a theory it was designed for people with shorter proportions since we both like it but our barn manager hates it with a passion (she is taller) - but it’s also dependent on your femur length, I have a longer femur than my trainer despite us being the same height.

Thank you!! “Impressive” hip-femur angles doesn’t sound good at all!

I’m fairly tall (5’9") with a long-ish femur. But a short high block (or no block at all) feels comfortable to me, which is fairly similar I think to the fit that people with shorter proportions prefer. It was suggested to me to ride in one with a very high, very short, almost horizontal block.

I’m hoping that the adjustable stirrup bars do me some good as well, I just worry about adjusting those, and then running into the block.

Yes, the tight flexors + the rest of the issues are just exhausting. Then when I stretch enough to stretch, everything just aches. Hip pain is no fun.

[FjordBCRF]

@Knubbsy

I have EDS as well as “impressive” hip-femur angles (according to an orthopedist) so am prone to hip problems (popping hip, subluxation, tight flexors, and currently piriformis syndrome) and have a Bates Artiste

Fellow EDS-er here. How would you guess is the Artiste for shorter back round horses?

[Knubbsy]

@Alterration

I’m fairly tall (5’9") with a long-ish femur. But a short high block (or no block at all) feels comfortable to me, which is fairly similar I think to the fit that people with shorter proportions prefer. It was suggested to me to ride in one with a very high, very short, almost horizontal block.

I’m hoping that the adjustable stirrup bars do me some good as well, I just worry about adjusting those, and then running into the block.

Moving the stirrup bar forward helped me so I could drop my thigh down instead of trying to balance with the pivot point too far behind me. But you sound more like my barn manager who hated the Artiste due to her proportions so got a DK that she and our working student absolutely love for its thigh block shape. Good luck!

I heard someone say saddle fit is more like magic than a science

[Knubbsy]

@FjordBCRF

Fellow EDS-er here. How would you guess is the Artiste for shorter back round horses?

My mare is fairly short backed and a little curvy and it works well for her when she has a good topline, when she’s out of shape we need to add a half pad because it’s meant to sit closer to the back but has more space laterally for the spinus process but without muscle it’s too close. If I recall, the panels are a little curvier than other Bates saddles so it might be difficult on a true couch but when my mare was in her “land whale” phase the other year, it fit fine.

[FjordBCRF]

Awesome thank you! My fjord is 6 this year and we’ve gotten by so far in a Wintec AP that’s been adjusted for him. I’d like get something that fits me a little better though too but didn’t want to spend a lot early on when he was still growing and filling in.

[Mondo]

Are you 100% certain that your pain is soft tissue/saddle related? I rode with horrific pain for decades until I finally bit the bullet and had my hips (both of them, although not simultaneously) replaced. I wish I had done it sooner. If you are meeting with the surgeon, maybe they can tell you if it’s joint replacement that you need.

That said, riding in pain is no fun. I hope you find a solution. Good luck!

[foggybok]

I have not found a modern dressage saddle that I can ride in. I recently took a lesson and told the instructor I needed a saddle without knee blocks. But even the saddle she chose made me so uncomfortable I was in tears before 30 minutes was up. I cut the lesson short at 45 minutes.

I actually love my ancient Stubben Tristan for comfort. The old style Stubbens also have a narrow twist which I have found to be important for comfort along with the lack of giant knee blocks.

I really don’t get the knee block thing. To be held in a position does not seem conducive to good riding. If I need to lengthen my leg, it should come from me, not the saddle.

[Alterration]

@Mondo

Are you 100% certain that your pain is soft tissue/saddle related? I rode with horrific pain for decades until I finally bit the bullet and had my hips (both of them, although not simultaneously) replaced. I wish I had done it sooner. If you are meeting with the surgeon, maybe they can tell you if it’s joint replacement that you need.

No. I’m not certain, although when I had my labral tear - FAI/Impingement surgery (just 2 years ago) they said that I had minimal Osteoarthritis and that it was mostly the impingement that was causing the issues. They fixed that, but now it’s back. My suspicion is that it’s a muscular problem causing the femoral neck to be sitting at the wrong angle in my hip joint, which then causes the bone to develop a cam & pincer impingement.

Since I CAN sit in a hunt seat saddle, no matter the twist, I have to imagine there’s some sort of saddle that can work for me. Or maybe I’m delusional?

[hoopoe]

I know I have beat this drum elsewhere, but I encourage a consult with Urogynocologist to check for pelvic floor dysfunction. My tight hips were caused by the inside of the pelvis

[Simkie]

I’ve got to ride in a pretty narrow twist with my hip stuff. A wide one is just a killer. I’m not sure where the Artiste sits on that spectrum, but if you find it doesn’t feel great, the twist is definitely one element to consider.

[atlatl]

Another fan of total hip replacement! I too wish I’d done it years ago and am riding better now than ever.

[iberianfan]

Another hip replacement advocate. When I had the right hip done, the surgeon said you may never need the left. A year ago, in April, seeing my orthopod for knees and other joints, left hip was fine. By August I could barely walk and had it replaced inOctober. It went downhill that fast. I hate arthritis.

[Posting_Trot]

If you’re comfortable in in your hunt seat saddle, why not try a dressage saddle made by the same manufacturer? Or maybe you already have and the saddle hasn’t worked for you. But if you haven’t, it might be worth a shot.

[Alterration]

Unfortunately, oddly enough, I can’t find a dressage version of my saddle.

I bought a cheapo Pinnacle Kirkby (https://www.sstack.com/pinnacle-kirkby-close-contact-saddle/p/15578/?variant=TRUE) from Schneider’s because I have a young horse and I didn’t want to buy something expensive until I knew we weren’t going to roll or otherwise break the saddle. Their dressage version has a big knee roll that most likely will not work in terms of the placement, even if it were available, which it is not.

I’m not sure who makes this saddle (it’s actually pretty well made for it’s price point) - if I can figure THAT out, maybe there will be something comfortable made by the same maker.

[SAB]

For those looking for zero knee rolls - the Stubben Genesis Special is the saddle you’re looking for: https://stubbennorthamerica.com/product/genesis-special it’s what Catherine Haddad (and all her students) ride in.

[Alterration]

Ok, some questions answered if you’re interested in the Bates.

First of all, this truly is a lovely saddle. The leather is of very high quality. The adjustable stirrup bars I think are going to be a godsend for my hips at this stage.

And the knee blocks, well, they come off They do leave some holes in the flap when you accidentally remove them, but since I believe my need for removal to be temporary, I’m not concerned. They do adjust easily, if you’re not overzealous with the screwdriver. They are comfortable when you can get your leg behind them (I took the first one off to see how it felt then took the other one off).

For the person whose leg already goes where it belongs, unlike me, ms screwed up hips, there are lots of adjustment points. The twist does not feel excessively wide, and I think I’ll be able to start with my super short stirrups (necessary until my hips release) and adjust once things quit seizing. I have discovered Joe Hippensteel and just a few days of his therapy stretches have really helped, so I’m optimistic!

I have not yet ridden in it, as it is hotter than the devil’s armpit, but I plan to try it on him tonight to see if we have a fit!

[lazaret]

How long are the flaps? I know it has the cutaway, but how long are they overall?

I am considering one for the adjustable blocks and bars, but I am a shortie and need the flap to not be at my ankles.

[Alterration]

They are not long and they are somewhat forward as compared to other dressage saddles. I’d measure mine, but mine is a size 2 (18-18.5) so if you’re not my size it might have different proportions. It really does feel much more like a CC saddle, although I have to say that this is the first monoflap dressage saddle that I’ve ridden in, so maybe they all feel like that. The saddle is also quite lightweight, which I love.

I rode in it for the first time yesterday, only for about 10 minutes as that’s all I could take with the heat. It was comfortable. I could keep my stirrups at short hunter length and my hips felt very happy. Once I start to be able to drop my stirrups a bit, I can put the knee blocks back on. It really does depend on what brand of messed up your hips are, in my case, I have one leg stuck in internal rotation and the other stuck in external rotation. The PT said that mine are the most jammed up hips she has ever seen (thanks?). All the muscles are short and defensive, it’s a wonder I can ride at all.

I’m super happy that I found something that works for me, and my horse likes it because it works for me. It fit him nicely with no shims, but I think he’s the happiest because I’m not up there all grippy trying to fight the saddle +