Permanent vs. Temporary Barns in California

[PeteyPie]

I am curious about something. Most of the horse properties I see in Southern California have temporary barns, the type made from metal or a combination of metal and plastic, fiberglass, or wood panels sandwiched into metal channels.

Why are there so many of these types of buildings? At first I surmised it had to do with cost, that they were simply cheaper than permanent structures. Then I started to question that logic because even in the very nicest, most expensive neighborhoods I see these buildings; I would expect to see a variety of different barn styles in those affluent areas where people can afford what they want.

It could be that there is something superior about this style of barn over a cinderblock, concrete, adobe or slumpblock, or just plain wood barn.

Could it be that people want to take it with them when they move? The place where I board used to have a huge Barnmaster barn, with over 20 stalls and an arena. The wife sold it in a divorce and had it dis-assembled and hauled off.

The other thought I had is that it has something to do with property taxes. If the structure is not permanent, it does not increase the property value, and therefore the annual property taxes.

Or it could have something to do with zoning restrictions? Maybe permanent barns are prohibited in many areas?

If you built a barn in California or know someone who built one, what was the determining factor in barn style/materials and what where your options?

[poltroon]

I think you are mistaken to think of these barns as temporary. They usually are very permanent.

I’m not sure I can tell you why exactly they’re popular in California and not elsewhere. It may be that the price and availability of steel is attractive on the west coast, where we have heavy industry and ports, and that there’s not much tradition of wooden barns here.

Metal barns are fire resistant and they enable very airy structures with lots of ventilation. (The weather does not require tightly closed structures and most California barns I’ve experienced cannot be tightly closed.)

The metal-based barns are also very modular - you put up a pad and then the on-site labor to install one is minimal. No local carpentry. This is probably a significant savings over a scratch-built wooden barn.

The metal based barns last a long time with little maintenance. Another win.

There are some occasions where the horse operation does not own the land. However, in those cases, usually pipe corrals are used rather than full-on barns. They’re even more modular and easy to work with.

Cinderblock is going to be a more expensive construction style (I have experienced barns built with them, they can be quite nice) and my guess is that wood is going to cost as much or more than metal, plus it is high maintenance. There’s no advantage to wood here that I can see.

[ReSomething]

How old are you? I remember when pipe corrals migrated to CA from Texas and the desert SW. Up in NorCal we were close to timber country but in SoCal lumber was hard to come by. I remember being very surprised by my MIL’s metal pen system and mare motels when my vision was somewhat different - she’s in SD county.

There are termites in CA that will eat your fenceposts and ruin the pole barn that works great for me here in KY, lumber is cost prohibitive to obtain and less durable, and it’s hot and dry in SoCal which isn’t so good for lumber either.

Metal can be set up to maximize every breeze in a mare motel but basically I think it’s a cost effective option that is also something people are used to seeing so they choose the option. It’s more fire retardant in wildfires although they don’t survive a bad one either.

Now, different counties have different codes as far as ag buildings, some have minimum acreage, some are OK until you add some form of public use like a stable or winery then codes kick in, I’m not sure you can call a big Barnmaster temporary because it better have some sort of foundation or it’ll be one horrible mess in a windstorm - modular maybe but a lumber building can be built in a modular manner as well. I can’t recall enough about codes and assessments in CA anymore, except that your assessment stays stable based on your purchase price with a nominal % increase annually UNLESS you remodel enough stuff or add new construction and then look out - so possibly the “permarary” nature is a consideration. You’d have to call the Assessor’s office and ask if you really wanted to know.

Now, you say what about cinder block, I think that the metal pre-fabs are more cost effective and less labor intense. Bear in mind you have to have a construction blueprint to build with lumber in order to put all the rafters in the right places, doors, windows, run the electric and the plumbing, same with cinder block, it’s generally done on a one off basis and I’ll bet that the really upscale places have quite a few custom barns.

I’m voting for familiarity with the construction style and ease of sourcing as the number one options, and possibly qualifying as temporary so no change to tax basis.

[Bluey]

I am seeing more of those MD prefab barns being used here by very good trainers and making fancy barns out of them.

I think they are a good model of well thought out barns, with many options and that is better than having some local builder, that doesn’t know horses, try to figure what to build.

One example, when my neighbor and I started my barn, I had surgery and was not there when he set the pylons and he measured, for a 14’ space, like a builder will, from the outside to the outside of columns, which gave us a 13’ aisle.
So, we had to cut our 14’ gates down to 13’.:rolleyes:

Anyone putting up gates know that 14’ is inside measurements from post to post, not outside.:lol:

He knows better now and asks first.

[PeteyPie]

I’ll have to ask him but I think the main reason my barn owner bought the Barnmaster which I mentioned earlier is that it was easy to buy. Like the model homes in California, the marketing makes it easy. You can shop, find an example in a catalogue, and I think the sellers usually will give you the option of having them install it or you can install it yourself. My BO did mention something about the building being temporary and not paying taxes or having to have it inspected.

As for the definition of “temporary,” I’m not sure how the county defines it. Where I used to live, temporary was mainly defined as having a permanent foundation onto which the structure is permanently attached. Seems like some wiggle room there as to what the definition of “permanently attached” is. The Barnmaster was easily detached (apparently) from it’s concrete footings by unscrewing bolts. A frame house has a sill plate which is bolted to the foundation, so that definition gets even fuzzier in my mind. I’ll have to call the county.

[ReSomething]

Ease of sourcing and/or ease of purchase then.

That’s why so many people buy doublewides here in KY and the South - it’s like buying a car, there’s even a lot to walk to check out your model, they offer financing that’s a lot easier than having to put together a construction loan and write draws as construction progresses, they have guys that’ll come up and lay a basic foundation and plop the thing right on your lot and there are few if any restrictions.

I recall that one of our Cothers had a prefab metal barn and although it was firmly fastened down with anchors it lost its integrity and was sort of disassembled by a windstorm, roof lifted up and walls came up out of the tracks IIRC, she had pictures of it - can’t remember where - NC? SE state? Can’t say what would have happened in that storm to conventional construction though - would it have fared better or worse - don’t know.

[ReSomething]

Oh yeah, we have a “portable” run in with a pipe frame and it is sitting on a permanent foundation with thick straps that go around the bottom pipes, like extra heavy plumber’s tape for hot water heaters, and are bolted to anchor bolts in the foundation. Take ten minutes to free it.

[RickDC]

We have built many, many barns, all wood, throughout California.

The determining factor is almost exclusively cost.

Just because people have money doesn’t mean they want to spend it on a custom and/or wood barn. Homes are so expensive in many parts of California that there is often not much money left over to lavish on the horses. I agree with previous responses that the structures you are describing are usually quite permanent, and a prefab metal barn is going to be significantly less expensive than a wooden post & beam structure, or even a pole barn. We are based in the Pacific Northwest where wood couldn’t be any more abundant, so I can tell you that wood barns are more expensive than metal everywhere, not just in California. We only build wood structures (specializing in post & beam and timber frame), and the main reasons Californians do choose us over metal are aesthetic preference (a great wood barn is undeniably beautiful), comfort (especially if an office or living quarters will be included), and long-term durability.

[saddleup]

Don’t forget how tasty wood is to horses, too! Yes, they’re beautiful, but if your horses are more like beavers, a metal barn is the only way to go, in my opinion.

[netg]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7426129]
Ease of sourcing and/or ease of purchase then.

That’s why so many people buy doublewides here in KY and the South - it’s like buying a car, there’s even a lot to walk to check out your model, they offer financing that’s a lot easier than having to put together a construction loan and write draws as construction progresses, they have guys that’ll come up and lay a basic foundation and plop the thing right on your lot and there are few if any restrictions.

I recall that one of our Cothers had a prefab metal barn and although it was firmly fastened down with anchors it lost its integrity and was sort of disassembled by a windstorm, roof lifted up and walls came up out of the tracks IIRC, she had pictures of it - can’t remember where - NC? SE state? Can’t say what would have happened in that storm to conventional construction though - would it have fared better or worse - don’t know.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure if it was someone else or me you’re thinking of. Steel frame with wood channels. We were hit by a freak occurence for this area - an abnormally strong dry microburst - which meant a vertical column of wind at hurricane strengths came up and hit exactly along the edge to lift one half of the barn several feet in the air and the bolts holding it together were the failure point, plus a few steel beams were bent after the bolts. It actually wasn’t as bad as it could have been - horses were safe and damage was minor compared to the entire village it flattened on a reservation. Our insurance company had to have extra adjustors come out because of the damage it called - not a typical weather situation here at all. As an engineer it was interesting looking at and assessing the damage - it looked like a ductile fracture from the bolts basically being pulled apart at the middle rather than shearing. My coworkers made me take bolts in to work to show them. :lol:

Notice the side which is on top of the blue barrel and the horse blanket still sitting on the green chair in the aisle untouched - that’s how exactly on point the wind was. Crazy!

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8436/7790422716_55797c3135_h.jpg

I had my gelding at my trainer’s at the time, and was waiting for the vet to call because he had just come up with the only abscess of his life. I had just landed from a flight back after buying my filly and she was hit by a hurricane not too long after (no damage there at all, I don’t think, from that one). My crippled mare was at the house and lifted to the other side of the 5’ fence, and my mom’s mare was just worried about how she was going to get her next meal since there was a wall in her stall keeping her from going to her normal eating place. I think she was most traumatized of all. :lol:

[fourmares]

Cinder block, brick and adobe are not good in places that have earthquakes.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=fourmares;7430450]
Cinder block, brick and adobe are not good in places that have earthquakes.[/QUOTE]

They are good most any other place.

Metal barns have stood up to our climate and high winds better than wood ones.
We don’t have any left that were framed with wood.
Termites and dry rot keeps their life expectancy at around 30 years.
We have metal barns still standing like new since the mid 1940’s and they are much more resistant to fire, although given enough fuel, they will also be destroyed, just not help fuel the fire, as a wood structure would.

Life is about compromises, building is about compromises too.
We and our animals then have to live with those compromises, for good and some times suffer the consequences too.

Best is to assess your own risks and then carry on and hope for the best, whatever you decide.

[poltroon]

Cinder block for a low, one story structure like a barn is fine for earthquakes. You do have to use rebar and concrete in the centers of course. But the horses are harder on those structures than earthquakes are.

The nice thing about the cinder block barns is that they stay pretty cool in summer.

[aka_Hermein]

I have an MD/BarnMaster 4-horse shedrow with tack closet and 8ft overhang. I bought it because it was faster than a stick built, I could design what I wanted, didn’t need permits, it’s safer than a wood barn (fire). I have moved it two times and it’s still the best looking barn in the neighborhood. Plus, I can add on stalls pretty easily.

I currently have, in addition to the above barn, a couple of big shed-type buildings that have been retrofitted into stalls/run-ins. Very utilitarian in looks and function. If I could afford it, I’d replace these older buildings with an extension to the MD/Barnmaster–convert the shed row into a center aisle.

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=aka Hermein;7439848]
I have an MD/BarnMaster 4-horse shedrow with tack closet and 8ft overhang. I bought it because it was faster than a stick built, I could design what I wanted, didn’t need permits, it’s safer than a wood barn (fire). I have moved it two times and it’s still the best looking barn in the neighborhood. Plus, I can add on stalls pretty easily.

I currently have, in addition to the above barn, a couple of big shed-type buildings that have been retrofitted into stalls/run-ins. Very utilitarian in looks and function. If I could afford it, I’d replace these older buildings with an extension to the MD/Barnmaster–convert the shed row into a center aisle.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the response.

Why do you not need permits for a barnmaster? Does this have to do with the definition of temporary or the type of foundation? Do you have any kind of footing with your barn or is it built right on the ground?

[aka_Hermein]

Here, if you put outbuildings (such as a barn) on a permanent foundation, you need a building permit. They aren’t awfully expensive, but end up being a giant pita and time suck. I’ve had this barn on a perimeter foundation, and on corner poured piers with railroad ties filling in the spaces between the piers. I think the criteria varies from county to county, and we’re a rural county so people can do more or less what they like. In our particular county, if you can pick up the structure and move it, it’s considered temporary.

[Fuego1]

I don’t know about everyone else, but in my location, one of my first reasons why I would NOT build a wood barn is because we are in an area with plenty of fires. Also, the convenience of the MD, etc barns seems hard to pass up. There are places around here that sell them where you can go check them out already set up, order what you want, and not have to go through some super crazy planning process.

It is also true that some people take their barns when they move, or sell the barn separately from a property before moving.

[candyappy]

My boarding barn in CA had the open air barn with pipe sides and attached runs 12x24. They also had box stalls with attached runs in the same style. For them the quick assembly, cost, durability, open and airy feeling was all factored into their reasons for choosing that type of building as well as the fact that they were on leased land so the barns could be taken if / when they left. I like the barns and if I lived in the right climate that is what I would choose.

[emgjoker]

We have a 36 stall center isle MD barn in so ca. Our roof is 18"'above the top of the stalls, so there a considerable gap for air flow…it makes a HUGE difference in the summer. Wood burns when we have fires, and the sun damage is ridiculous. We have tongue and groove throughout the inside and the stalls on the end have to be sanded and treated twice a year because the sun hits them and dries the wood that fast. We certainly had permits, inspections, etc. we have a very permanent foundation the barn sits on. Not only did MD let us design our barn, but we were given a rep that worked as a site manager. She knew who to call when, what order to have things done, and cracked the whip when our electrician was behind. It made it so we could have the barn built while we were training horses at a rented location and know things were getting done.

[Watermark_Farm]

i put up a modular wood barn from North Coast Barns (northcoastbarns.com). I wanted the aesthetic of wood with the cost of a prefab, lol. It has been a great barn for 10 years now.

I can see the wisdom of putting up smaller shelters that are easily moved. I wish I could move my 12 x 24 shelter – rookie that I was 10 years ago, I built in the lowest place in the pasture, which I have since filled in with baserock. So now the shelter is filled in so much there’s only 6’ of head clearance at the front of the shelter, where once there was 8! I can’t fill it any more – sure wish I could pick it up and re-situate it.