Oh please! :rolleyes: First you object to a wonderfully written article and the content, now you object to a perfectly simple suggestion (one that is recommended by the moderators in general, BTW). You guys have totally killed the OP’s thread and you’re not done yet, I guess. Try putting yourself in the OP’s position: You write this great article, you try to share it with others, a particular group in opposition takes exception to it and totally changes the topic away from your original post. Put another way: How about you, YL, start a topic about how great your US bred horses are or a selling/buying experience here, we don’t like it and change the subject to how great horse buying abroad is. DO you see the point now?
it’s the horse in the end
I chose a wb imported from germany over american warmbloods I had looked at because the german wb was the best horse. in my opinon and what i liked.
I chose a ky ottb because she was the best horse. in my opinon and what i liked.
I looked at american wbs, but found that some breeders, don’t flame me, not all, but some, got free or very cheap tb mares, then bred them to good wb studs. this is not the way it is done in europe. I boarded where the Bo got old tb mares with bad conformation, bred them, got not so good looking foals, and sold these wbs (and discarded the poor old mares to bad fates).
Europeans get good TB studs and infuse their blood into their warmbloods.
I’ve seen very good american wbs, by Ideal (imported son of Inschallah) and others. I would love to have an american wb by Abdullah, but haven’t found one I liked. yet in the end, had I found an american wb that was not 1/2 draught or out of a poorly conformed tb mare, I’d have bought him 7 years ago.
I’m not a breeder, I just know what I like. The barn where I board now has some good Trakehners that BO bred and has for sale.
[QUOTE=Dune;3347260]
Oh please! :rolleyes: First you object to a wonderfully written article and the content, now you object to a perfectly simple suggestion (one that is recommended by the moderators in general, BTW). You guys have totally killed the OP’s thread and you’re not done yet, I guess. Try putting yourself in the OP’s position: You write this great article, you try to share it with others, a particular group in opposition takes exception to it and totally changes the topic away from your original post. Put another way: How about you, YL, start a topic about how great your US bred horses are or a selling/buying experience here, we don’t like it and change the subject to how great horse buying abroad is. DO you see the point now?[/QUOTE]
Guess what, I wouldn’t care.
Let’s get this straight. No one is saying that jilmarieaz didn’t write a very good and informative article. It is indisputable that there are thousands more warmblood horses being bred in Germany than are bred in the US. For the forseeable future it will remain easier to shop there, it’s just gotten MUCH more expensive to do so and to replicate jilmarieaz’s wonderful horse shopping experience. But, it is perfectly sensible to wonder whether that sort of good horse shopping experience can or could also take place here in the U.S. Jilmarieas is to be commended for inspiring what, at least for some posters here, has been a thoughtful exercise about the challenges buyers and sellers of good warmblood horses here in the US face and how the US horse shopping experience could be made better. As a good many posters have observed, this thread has raised a good many nice ideas. Jilmarieas may not have anticipated the direction that this thread has taken based on her initial posting, but she should be proud of the discussion that she has inspired. Perhaps Jilmarieaz will have some additional useful ideas of her own to add. Let this very useful thread live on!
Just goes to show you… to some folks inspiration is a bad word… 
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;3347302]
I chose a wb imported from germany over american warmbloods I had looked at because the german wb was the best horse. in my opinon and what i liked.
I chose a ky ottb because she was the best horse. in my opinon and what i liked.
I looked at american wbs, but found that some breeders, don’t flame me, not all, but some, got free or very cheap tb mares, then bred them to good wb studs. this is not the way it is done in europe. I boarded where the Bo got old tb mares with bad conformation, bred them, got not so good looking foals, and sold these wbs (and discarded the poor old mares to bad fates).
Europeans get good TB studs and infuse their blood into their warmbloods.
I’ve seen very good american wbs, by Ideal (imported son of Inschallah) and others. I would love to have an american wb by Abdullah, but haven’t found one I liked. yet in the end, had I found an american wb that was not 1/2 draught or out of a poorly conformed tb mare, I’d have bought him 7 years ago.
I’m not a breeder, I just know what I like. The barn where I board now has some good Trakehners that BO bred and has for sale.[/QUOTE]
A lot of good points here. First - what are the minimal requirements for the American Warmblood Society? Not Thoroughbred, Arabian or draft. Yes, they still have to be inspected, but - according to the rules, you can present a Quarter Horse, Tennessee Walker, etc. These horses have no draft in them. The most basic definition of a Warmblood is Hot (i.e. thoroughbred or Arabian) Crossed with Cold (Draft). I would make the argument that a Quarter Horse is also a hot blood since its lineage is so closely linked to Thoroughbreds. You can make the argument that Morgans and Saddlebred and Standarbreds should be hotblood also. Cross them with a suitable draft, THEN get them inspected.
In talking to people from Europe there seems to be a difference in culture that is high lighted in cloudyandcallie’s post - in the US, breed anything. How many times have I heard “well, this mare didn’t do well on the track, so we are breeding her (for future racehorses)” or “Her confirmation is bad, but she has great bloodline (or is a paint, palomino, other desirable color) so we are breeding her.” The standards are much more strict in Europe. Maybe it is a space issue - the further out west you go, the more space for horses to run. Tennesse confiscated 30 mares (some in foal again), a bunch of foals and a stallion that just ran free on a farm - they were confiscated because the owner did not have enough money to feed them properly. I am not saying a Warmblood breeder will do this - but people see this on TV, then look at bad ads (which I explain more below) and decide to go to Europe. This is an obstacle that US breeders have to get over in order to sell.
When I was in Germany with a student exchange program, I did go to a small riding farm and my German host did not like it there, and the horses did not get as much turn out - it was not an ideal facility - but the horses were fat and generally speaking in good health. And this was a less than ideal facility! In the US, a less than ideal facility shows a bunch of skinny horses. On a slightly different note, dogs were allowed in all stores. While not every dog was well behaved - the ones not so well trained were not taken to the stores. We were at a party (all teenagers) where there was alcohol. The ONE person that drank to much and ended up with her head in the toilet was looked down upon. This is just one country - but my sister had similar experiences in England. It is not about quantity, but quality in Europe.
So, next thought is to breed the European Warmblood breeds - but then look at some of the pictures of them for sale. I am still of the opinion that people will start looking for a horse on the common internet sites before going to breeding farm sites - mostly because they do not know what farms are out there. If you go to dreamhorse.com or equine.com, you will see bad pictures, horses at a bad time in the movement, riders being to forward, having piano hands, etc. It makes a serious buyer wonder if that horse is really trained correctly. Someone that has a spare $30K to drop on a horse, has the money to go to Europe to a sale and buy and import a horse that is ridden correctly and looks good. Granted you are talking about pictures vs. live action - but you know what they say about first impressions.
Solutions?
Marketing research - how do people start looking for their Warmbloods? If it is the internet, figure out the three most common search types and use those as the base for a website. This will cost money and time
Band together - With the website described above, form a National Breeders Society to get people to see all the horses in an area - have an option available to ‘truck’ the people around. (I was actually thinking I could start a side business taking people from airports to the farms in the area, but no idea how it could work). This will cost money and time
Have Patience - Like I mentioned before, 5 years after his invention started production, my friend’s dad is still operating out of his house. Also look at Hyundai - 20 years ago it had a reputation for being a horrible car. It still has that reputation with some people, but it has worked to make the car better and now to overcome the reputation. It takes time and may take revamping a few times before it really works. This will cost time
The last issue is figuring out how much money can be spent, how much time, etc. Also getting such a large number and diversity of people to agree on certain issues.
I looked at american wbs, but found that some breeders, don’t flame me, not all, but some, got free or very cheap tb mares, then bred them to good wb studs. this is not the way it is done in europe. I boarded where the Bo got old tb mares with bad conformation, bred them, got not so good looking foals, and sold these wbs (and discarded the poor old mares to bad fates).
Europeans get good TB studs and infuse their blood into their warmbloods.
I’ve seen very good american wbs, by Ideal (imported son of Inschallah) and others. I would love to have an american wb by Abdullah, but haven’t found one I liked. yet in the end, had I found an american wb that was not 1/2 draught or out of a poorly conformed tb mare, I’d have bought him 7 years ago.
cloudyandcallie, I’m sorry you had such a bad experience and exposue to so many badly bred horses. I agree that I’ve seen some horrible examples of TB mares - lame, ewe-necked, coon-footed, very poor movers. I’ve also seen them turned down at mare inspections and their foals get only a Certificate of Pedigree and not registered. These are usually first time breeders, or backyard breeders that think they can get papers for these poor creatures.
The reputable Warmblood registries, with a couple of exceptions, will accept TB mares IF, and ONLY IF, they meet the inspection criteria for conformation, type and movement. Most of these registries have several levels of mare books and any mare that can make at least Main Mare Book is a pretty nice mare. Several of these registries also offer Mare Performance Tests (MPT) for all the mares accepted into their books. TB blood is definitely necessary in the WB’s, which is why it is accepted. Any breeder going the inspection route, and if possible the MPT route, has a pretty nice mare, WB OR TB. Foals that go through the inspection process at some point (foals for some registries, foals and/or older for others) is worth taking a look at. Many, if not most, of the WB registries offer awards for foals, mares, and even successful breeders.
I would no more have some yahoo’s product of their horses uterus crossed with some creature down the road with balls than you, but please don’t discount reputeable breeders in this country. When I first started breeding I saw foals with scores in the low 6’s and 7’s, along with the better foals that got from mid 7’s on up. I haven’t seen a foal score that low for years, and in fact, my registry has had to raise the bar twice in the years I’ve been with them for the score required for Premium Foal as the quality has improved soooooo much in this country. Many of the foals that got Premium 10 years ago would not get Premium today.
I also realize that not may riders can manage to properly raise a foal. Many riders have to board their horses and leave their care up to a Barn Owner or Stable Manager who doesn’t have adequate experience or turnout to raise a foal. That’s OK. But don’t discount properly raised and well-handled youngsters that breeders have that are just ready to start (if you can start them yourself or have someone experienced in starting horses) or recently started.
Certainly based on some posters experiences and many ads I’ve seen, not all breeders are alike, but look to those of us, of ANY registry, that follow accepted principles of breeding and have their youngster and mares registered, inspected and graded with reputable registries with strict standards.
Guess what, I don’t believe you, your multiple posts on this thread tell a different story. :yes::lol:
none of you feel at this point, that you’re all getting a little tense?
RE: Jeff Marsh auctions. I’ve bought two horses through him (weanling and a yearling). Trained them to 3rd level before selling them. Five other friends bought horses at this particular auction or other later auctions. One now competes in the jumpers a notch below GP; another is enjoyed by her amateur owner; another bought with the plan for purchasing a nice broodmare, etc. etc. These were nice horses purchased at fair prices.
The difficulty I have with these auctions is that they aren’t advertised soon enough. Like others, my schedule is jam-packed so I need some time to plan/organize. Maybe he does it now, but I think listing the horses on a website (with videos) and updating as horses are added would help. Currently the catalog is created too close to the actual auction date.
I totally agree. The best auction we had was when November Hill Farm was selling all of the horses from a SC farm. The horses were at the farm about a month before the auction date, so people could try them. There were open schooling and free jump dates a couple of weeks in advance. The bidding was serious and we got good prices for those horses.
Was that auction in Charlottesville? I think it was the November Hill auction I went to, to look at a 15.1 hand Domingo daughter (I didn’t get her).
Yes, that is probably the one. I believe it was the stock from the farm that stood Domingo. We did several others, but none were that successful. I believe a 2 year old sold for over 37,000. A big price for this country.
If you are talking about the November Hill Farm dispersal auction in '96 (I think), that was the one I attended. Gerd Zuther was striking out on his own, and the owner, Mr. Fuchs, decided to sell one of the farms he owned (NHF) and keep the other, so some of the horses had to go. Wish I had had the money to buy one of the stallions! That was super fun – well run. Gerd certainly has an eye for horses! That’s about when I began working with Gerd and bringing him in for clinics. Superb horseman…all around breeder, trainer, and when he rode the horses – magic! They dance. Okay…I digress…
Actually the auction I was speaking of was several years before. (91?) We were handlling another farm’s dispersal. When NHF was closing, that sale was pretty well attended to, although the prices were all over. It was funny to me to see prices go by “reputation” more than actual quality. Top mare’s foals were going for high prices, when in reality, they were a bit dissappointing. OTOH, really nice foals out of less “known” mares were going very cheaply.
That was sometimes the way with those auctions. At one of the auctions, we sold a 17.1 h incredibly impressive mare for big bucks. She was awesome to look at, but not really a good mover, and her foals were not either. They sold well because they “looked” the part, standing there.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3353075]
Actually the auction I was speaking of was several years before. (91?) We were handlling another farm’s dispersal. When NHF was closing, that sale was pretty well attended to, although the prices were all over. It was funny to me to see prices go by “reputation” more than actual quality. Top mare’s foals were going for high prices, when in reality, they were a bit dissappointing. OTOH, really nice foals out of less “known” mares were going very cheaply.
That was sometimes the way with those auctions. At one of the auctions, we sold a 17.1 h incridibly impressive mare for bog bucks. She was awesome to look at, but not really a good mover, and her foals were not either. They sold well because they “looked” the part, standing there.[/QUOTE]
Actually considering the weather, I thought the NHF auction was pretty well attended. But, not sure I agree with your assessment of what went for high prices had more of a “reputation” than deserved. Perhaps because I bought the highest priced weanling?! The Paxtons (who I came with, along with my trainer who was a former student of Gerd’s) also bought a couple of horses there that I didn’t think were over-priced for what they were. In fact, one of them I was bidding on, but of course, my budget was a bit smaller than John and Janet Paxton’s!! But I’ll never forget what a gentleman John was. He whispered to me as the bidding was going on, “I know you really want the mare, so if you want me to stop bidding so you can have her, I will.” How many people will do that?! I declined but I’ll never forget his kindness. Anyway, I digress again…
Auctions can be a great way to buy good horses, and usually at auctions, the organizers try to have a range of horses at different prices so everyone who comes has a possibility of going home with one. (Same as in Germany too.) BUT…the good thing about auctions like NHF, is that someone running them really knows horses and knows how to organize and select horses for the auction…and when necessary, not accepting horses for the auction if their quality isn’t at a specific standard.
I managed Hilton Farm for a while, so I knew all of the mares very well. My close friend and mentor managed it for about 8 years before I did. When she left, she purchased a gelding by Letkiss out of Little Saba. I really didn’t like the mare at all, and believed she was just buying what she could afford to get a Letkiss. My opinion totally changed when I saw the Little Saba filly (by Picaro, who was not my favorite) go at the auction. Erin got a steal! That mare was definitely a producer, but I didn’t see it when I managed the farm, as she did not foal that year, and we did not have any of her offspring.
Letkiss was definitely a very under used stallion.
[QUOTE=Bellfleur;3330367]
Another thing that this discussion has not brought to light are the lame and otherwise unusable horses that the Europeans sell to American’s through a variety of venues and the risks involved. Your access to legal recourse is severely hampered by purchasing in Europe. If you pay good money for a horse in Euro’s and you are completely defrauded do not expect to be able to do much about getting your funds back. This never seems to get talked about when people rave about of ‘my latest was imported’.[/QUOTE]
I sort of fall into this category. I say sort of because I got my imported Hanoverian from the person that imported him. I am also in the unusual category of being a driver. My friend was looking for an advanced level driving horse. She was pointed to this horse in Germany by a very well known American advanced driver. She “had to get to Germany post haste and get this horse, he was THE ONE”. So, on this trusted advise she went to the farm of one of the most well known and titled drivers in the world and tried and bought said horse. Within two weeks of getting him home it was apparent that he got sold “a bill of goods”. He was not what he was billed to be. He had some pretty significant baggage and issues. So much so that she quit driving him. He was supposedly also trained to ride, it became apparent in short order that that was not true. She sent him to a cowboy to start him and he became a fairly reliable riding horse. She contacted both the agent and the seller to no avail. Even received a cease and desist letter from the agents attorney. They did make the offer that she could ship him back at her cost, chose a different horse and ship it also at her cost. Not a particularly feasible option.
Fast forward to me needing a new horse. She offered him to me, thought I would get along with him and my program would suit him. He has been here with me for a little over a year. I absolutely adore him. I have no time line and am willing to work through his “stuff”. It has become apparent that his mind got really fried in Germany. He sort of short circuits and has a bit of a panic attack at times. Nothing dangerous, and we can work through it. He is a sensitive fellow and I believe they pushed him beyond his brain limit. He just turned eight, so his is still young, and very immature emotionally. He has boatloads of talent and tries so hard. He is now trusting me to not put him in situations that he doesn’t think he can handle.
So… if I had been the one that had 40K invested in him I would be seriously irritated! As it is I knew what I was taking on and am willing to see it through. And I think I said I love him to bits. I do believe he will be an awesome ten year old.
Here are a couple of photos of him…
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Apollo/ApolloShadyOaks2007Dressage.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff299/CDEDriver/Apollo/ApolloMarathonRamTap2007.jpg
Bottom line, buyer beware… especially I suppose when dealing with “Big Names” that have deep enough pockets to bury you in litigation.
Oh boy, that got a little long!
It’s not always when things don’t work out with an imported horse that someone got sold “a bill of goods”. Sometimes these horses have a very, very rough trip over. I understand that one well known Dutch exporter believes that as many as one in ten exported horses has “a bad trip”. Stats like that could certainly give one pause before importing!
Chris,
sorry, but how would that person know that 1 in 10 horses has a bad trip? Sounds like a pretty good excuse to me…
Best,
Siegi
